good points to all in the discussion.  ultimately it comes down to a difference in opinion.  impulse to me is a tool to manage my games and software.  i have all my registeration in one place.  i can print those out, download full offline copies of the games, and use the tool to install between my home systems as needed.  if i rebuild a machine, i reinstall from the web and dont have to deal with scratched cds my kid thought was a frisbee or digging out some box to find a code.  i just log in.  the price i pay is giving stardock my statical info.  so the know how many times ive played sins or mount & blade, big deal.

i can appreciate that others dont like this system, but again, thats their call.  kinda like how some people enjoy have dozens of icons on their desktops vs those that only want a couple.

Yes but that again is stardocks doing, all the games I own I can download the patch and install the patch _without_ an internet connection. That's exactly what I'm saying here, I simply want what all the other game manufactures supply and that is stand alone patches that can be installed onto a computer with no internet access. That's the norm, that's what pretty much every other game company gives you.

You know when I first purchased my copy of galciv2 you could update your game via Stardock Central AND you could also download the stand alone patch if you wanted to. Heck you could even download the entire game again. I went away thinking what awesome service Stardock was giving everyone and was really impressed them, not only had they delivered what everyone was giving but they went the extra mile and I reckognised that but now after recently reinstalled my game after a year or so of not playing and see how that has changed. Stardock central was still there but didn't work anymore, I downloaded the newer version and it didn't work either. I contacted support and was told "oh yea were not using that anymore, we use impulse now" yet you can still download stardock central for some reason.

I then started looking for stand alone patches assuming they would naturally be there and was shocked to see not only were they not there but stardock refused to give them out and their reasons for doing so made absolutley no sense. It came off as some kind of nazi approach to guarding their software. It's very bizarre, even world of warcraft a game you need to have internet to play will offer you stand alone patches.

Then I learned all about impulse. So not only is stardock not servicing their customers properly but they are acting in my opinion unprofessional and unethicly. When I bought my game there were the stand alone patches, then they simply changed the rules.

Well heaven forbid us customers should put stardock out, I mean who are we right? we just paid them our money for their software and now we have the nerve to ask for them to work a little harder and package up the data with their patch instead of having it connect over the internet. It really shouldn't be extra work, impulse already does the installation right? so the code is written and again this is what they did in the past so this is nothing new to them. All it needs to do is look on the local hard drive for the package instead of over the internet. This the norm here, this is what everyone else does. Every game company that produces stand alone patches (which is practically everyone) does this. If stardock did it there would be no need to worry about bandwidth.

Then unfortunatley it's not a stand alone patch in every sense of the word. That creates a problem doesn't it? this is what were talking about. If stardock goes offline tomorrow then that's it you're stuck with whatever version you currently have installed, if you don't have the game installed and/or backed up/archived then your stuck with whatever version you have on your cd and you have no means of updating to where stardock last left off with it before they went under.  However if they did things like everyone else then we would have full protection, we still download the last patch stardock created before they went offline from a friend or fileplanet etc.

Well that's fine leave impulse online for those that like it but distrbute stand alone patches for those that want that to install them later offline and want that protection. All a pirate has to do is get a working a email and password and get the latest patch using stardocks bandwidth. They don't even have to hack into the code, we all know how easily they manage to get ahold of account login info.

it's good for people that don't care about keeping the patches and I submit most of them really haven't thought about stardock going offline perminantly one day. If it happened all those people that are thinking they are getting great service would soon realise how important stand alone patches really are and why myself and others were talking about.

Yes but that is Stardocks doing, they could release stand alone patches like the rest of the world. I've never had to provide my game serial # etc to apply a stand alone patch. You download them and apply them at your leasure, that's pretty much how most companies does it.

So don't embed activation in the patches. Maybe I'm nieve here but I'm of the thinking that paying for the game supports the creator and by supporting them means they will continue to make great games. Stardock has made a great game but because of their refusl to support me after I've supported them, well it means I really have no intention of supporting them anymore until they fix this issue, I'm not the only one that feels this way, I just expect what every other game companies provide. I think the basic expectation is that you buy a game, you get a good manual, a stable running game and the company will fix the problems with it and give you the fix. I don't want to get the fix through a 3rd party intrusive peice of software that won't even give me the fix, it applies it for me and when SD goes out of business or if they just simply decide to no longer support the game then here I am with this game on cd and no way of patching anymore. where if it was anyone else I could google the patches if they weren't available on stardocks website and get them and keep them. It just makes common sense.

test

Secondly, Impulse patching works by checking the check-sum of every installed file against the one on the server, and downloading any that mismatch or are missing. This results in a minimum of required data transfer. To release a patch, Stardock simply updates the files on the server, update a version number, and replace the full download archives. Creating a standalone patch that can update any version to any other would not only result in far more strain to the download servers, it would also result in extra work for Stardock. Furthermore, a standalone patch that works just like Impulse does, with no extra effort, would be as big as the entire game, since every file needs to be there in case it is needed. Now, they do in fact have such a standalone 'patch', since that is indeed easy to create. It can be downloaded from http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com. It in fact uses Impulse to install the game, since that is indeed easiest. But it does require activation/unlocking, so it will do you no good if Stardock goes under.

No, Impulse does not prevent piracy. But it does prevent the Pirates from using Stardock's bandwidth to acquire their patches. It also results in them having to wait for someone to crack the new version, find out which files are changed, and create a standalone patch for them. He then has to acquire it, and install it manually. Using Impulse to auto-patch the game for you as soon as the new version is released is far more convenient for most people, which is the entire point.

You cannot prevent piracy without absolutely draconian methods, and even then you probably only delay them for a while. And after they have cracked your game, they have don't have to put up with said draconian copyright protection methods, making their experience superior. With Impulse, the customer's experience is superior: They can download the entire game from fast servers, even if they bought it retail. They have autopatching. Since the activation requirement is only added once you have used Impulse to update or download the game, and since said activation happens through Impulse, most customers do not even know said requirement exists.

If they would release standalone patches, users will come face to face with the activation requirement. The activation, since it no longer can happen automatically will become a hassle for customers. Sins of a solar empire was released prior to Impulse being ready. So they released standalone patches. None of those patches required the customer to activate their game. Then Impulse got released. They stopped issuing standalone patches, and silently introduced the activation requirement in the next Impulse-only patch. Since Impulse handled it silently, most customers to this day do not even know that Sins of a solar empire requires online activation. I had an argument about that with someone on these forums who could not believe the game had an activation requirement, even though he owned it. I had to explain all this and post screenshots of the activation dialog to convince him.

Copyright protection that is so unobtrusive that people cannot believe it is there is ideal. Stardock has never been Anti-DRM. They are Anti stupid DRM. Releasing standalone patches that will merely make their customers aware of their activation requirements is counter-productive for that reason, and therefore a waste of effort. Which is one of the reasons why you will never see standalone patches for Galactic civilizations 2.

 
[/quote]

Hello DauntlessAnsible,

What would your opinion be if stardock went down tomorrow and your computer crashed.  so you repair your computer and unfortunatley you had to get a new hard drive as the old one is toast. So you reinstall everything, now that impulse is no longer running you have to install from your CD's and well that's it. You wouldn't be able to update your game to the version you had before your computer crashed because stardock refused to make stand alone patches. You start to look at other games and notice hmmm practically all of them have stand alone patches that you could download not only from the game company but from other sources as well.

Would you not think "why did stardock refuse to give us stand alone patches when everyone is does it"

Impuse is not 3rd party.  It was created in-house, by Stardock.  Basically, take Stardock Central, modify the GUI a bit, upgrade the behind-the-scenes, and add useful features, and you've got Impulse.  And what is intrusive?  It's designed to be as unintrusive as possible.  It's only required to download, install, and update our software.  When you're done, feel free to uninstall it.  It's not required to actually run any of the software it installs.  If you're referring to the tray icon (Impulse Now), it incredibly easy to disable (right click, Settings, uncheck the first box).

You keep saying that.  "It's the norm.  Everybody does it."  How are those valid reasons to do something?  Netriak has given several reasons for doing things the way we do them, and I would say those are good reasons.  Doing something because it's always been done that way seems like backward thinking to me.

So your question is, why does Stardock use internet activation as copyright protection?

Stardock is primarily a non-game software company. Most commercial software, such as Microsoft windows or Photoshop, uses online activation as DRM, and has for years. No software company is stupid enough to use a disc check, since due to the massive amount of different programs people use, many of which start when windows starts, having such a form of DRM is beyond impractical.

Since many of the programs Stardock develops are small, and easily shared, some simple form of online activation to discourage casual piracy is a logical step. After all, since windows itself requires activation, it has to be at least acceptable to customers of windows software.

So when Stardock entered the games market, they naturally used the same copyright protection mechanism they had always used. After all, the arguments in favor of said protection are just as applicable for games as for software.

i've got a better solution, just give me a stand alone patch that I can download and apply in 5 mins and I'm a happy camper. I don't want to have to install any additional software and then uninstall it later simply to get a apply a patch for my game. I just want what everyone else in the market gives you. 

I keep saying because I have to, most the replies I've gotten in here don't address the main issue. That is if SD goes down tomorrow and impulse goes offline what is everyone going to do? The everyone does it line isn't just a line, other companies have thought of their customers and provided. What about people wanting to apply patches with no internet, what if SD goes out of business, is it really wise to have one way and only one way to get a patch for the game.....no it isn't! Stand alone patches exist for very good reasons, everyone does it means it's the industry standard....and it's the standard practice for a reason! I'm all for new and radical ideas provided they makes sense and don't take a needed tool away. The reasons given are just nonsense.

Yes I've read Netriak reasons and I've replied to him as to why they don't hold water. The bottom line is stardock is not comforming to the industry standard, and because they aren't doing that we cannot get something everyone else gives you...stand alone patches. If you don't have stand alone patches you cannot update your game without the internet, and if the company goes down then I hope you've backed up your game because that will be your only means of getting your game back to the version it was before stardock went awol. It's really cut and dry. Stand alone patches are portable and can be archived for times when you don't have internet access or if stardock should vanish or stop supporting galciv2. It makes perfect sense. I really cannot understand why stardock can sit there and refuse its users something so very basic. It's unprofessional to say the least and something that has been widely accepted for years. 

How about this, just give us stand alone patches, it's not hard and I'll be a happy camper and be more then happy to support stardock but I do want my patches the regular way and not the impulse tie my hands only way. I really don't understand how you as a user of this game (I assume you are a user and don't work for stardock) can honestly be against stand alone patches. It makes as much sense to me as turning down a winning lottery ticket or telling the car lot you just got your car from that you trust them completely and don't want the warranty. Why shoot yourself in the foot? I'd rather get the patches the normal way thank you very much and keep them just in case I need them.

@njareg- Rosco IS an employee for Stardock. Just check below the avatar. In fact, Rosco is with the support component of SD.

No that's not my question, my question is why is stardock refusing to give us something every other game company gives you.

Honestly Netriak it doesn't matter what kind of company they are, its irrelevent. They could farm pigs for a living it doesn't matter what so ever. They made a game and are selling it in the gaming market and are refusing to give you the same level of support that every other gaming company gives you. It's funny you mention those other companies becuase they all give you stand alone patches my friend.

This is really running around in circles though the main issue everyone in the gaming industry gives you stand alone patches, Stardock isn't in a bubble here, they are no more special then anyone else and everyone else solves the activation problem and gives you stand alone patches. Piracy happens to everyone in the game and software industry, I'm a supporter of the game producer, I pay for my games and have always been happy with the support I get from them until now, no patches is a very bad idea. They are taking a very important tool away. it's unethical and unprofessional to do this to your customers. The people that SUPPORT you. Had I known that they were going to do this I would never have given them my money.

Again Netriak the fact that they are small to be in the big leagues is irrelevant, how does the regular gaming industry that stardock is now a part of handle this? If they want to stay small and unprofessional that's up to them but you don't grow by thinking small or by frustrating and alienating a percentiage of your customers. They've lost my confidence until this is resolved and I know I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Is it really so inconcievable that me and others expect the industry standard? Its bizarre to have to argue for stand alone patches lol, it's like trying to explain why you wear a winter coat when your outside during the winter season. This really how crazy this whole idea is, I'm totally flabbergasted at Stardocks behaviour in this area.

The oblivious ones that just login and think everything is good becuase they haven't yet had to face impulse not being there are really in for some surprises when that happens. Welcome to the titanic the ship that will never sink people.

The oblivous ones that say they don't care will learn the hard way and the value of thinking for yourself and not being afraid to ask these companies the questions. The truth is Stardock took away some of their customer service and they are watching to see if the customers are letting them get away with it.

Maybe Stardock didn't realise they were taking away customer support, I don't know but the cold hard fact here is they did. They took it away, have you read over their gamers rights? It's all very good and it's baffling how they can post something like that and then take away one of the very basic ways of patching your game.

I have no problem with some form of copy protection. Stardock should look at how their compatition is doing it.

As for Windows you get 30 days to active it, if you don't have internet you can call them 24hrs a day, 7 days a week! I can also download stand alone patches, hell I can even slipstream and burn my own installation cd and microsoft will even give you the instructions on how to do that.  Is that the comparision you are using? Kinda Stardock out of the water doesn't it?

Well I'm not surprised, I suspect that was the case. He's arguing for this radical new approach idea which in reality is nothing of the sort. The idea is we buy the game but get a lower level of support, wow what a ground breaking idea that is. let's see how many customers this works on.

njareg, one thing you really aren't getting is the fact that, Impulse makes Stardock's putting out of patches 1) faster, 2) cheaper, and 3) seamless.

A good example would be buying an old (that is, not updated) version of a game, and then having to go through half a dozen OR MORE standalone patches that must then be stored for backup. And that's if the company releases patches that build on the last one; a cumulative standalone patch will be much larger than a <50MB incremental patch.

Really, it all comes down to the fact that- Stardock started out with software development. Thus, distribution and updating for the utility programs they developed and sold is what they decided on for the games they would/did make. And believe or not, Steam does the EXACT SAME THING as Impulse.

The only way a game that is on Steam can have standalone patches is if the company that put it on Steam did so AFTER release.

Overall, I have to say that I LIKE Impulse. I like it A LOT. Additionally, I have to say that developing standalone patches and releasing them is getting rather counterintuitive in a way. While I do think standalone patches CAN be useful (updating the v1.0 to something that came before Impulse, then archiving it, then updating to current), I would actually rather have my patches handled by Impulse, because then I don't have a bunch of wasted HDD or CD or DVD memory that's loaded with ONLY standalone patches.

After all, say you want to put one of your favorite games on a second computer. Say that 2nd comp has no Internet connection. With standalone patches, you first have to either 1) connect this 2nd computer to the Internet to D/L the patches, or 2) copy the patches to a disc (wasted space IMO), and then install the game from disc, and then apply either one enormous multi-100 megabyte patch or a half dozen or more incremental patches.

With Impulse, all you have to do is archive the game, copy the archive to disc, then copy the archive to the new computer and unpack it; install Impulse, re-activate the game, and then you're good. I have to say, that I find the 2nd method FAR less troublesome. Especially since you can use WinZIP, WinRAR, 7-Zip, or Impulse itself to make the archive, and then simply install Impulse to authenticate it.

One problem I see with your arguments is that you keep saying "what if Stardock went under and Impulse goes down tomorrow". Well, hate to break it ya, but companies generally don't go under overnight. A company going out of business is usually the result of several cumulative, long and short term causes. But a company doesn't go kaput in less than a day.

Whiskley I do understand these things but what your not hearing my friend is that everything you've mentioned is really in stardocks hands. The bottom line is when impulse goes down and if you don't have a backup then you're only method of updating your game is totally gone. You'll never be able to get your game back to the version it use to be before impulse vanished, and what are internetless users suppost to do? Not having stand alones is unbelieve irresponsible on stardocks part, it's arrogant and just unnacceptable poor customer service.

Yes impulse is faster in the sense that it downloads the patch and applies it for you. As for cheaper and seemless, It's free to download a stand alone patch, and there is no expense involved at the stardock end or shouldn't be much, the code already exists and they already created the update that impulse giving you. What's the difference? The only difference is they didn't package it up and make it available for download. You have to goto impulse and have it spoon fed to you. Even if it cost stardock some money thats really the cost of doing business isn't it? Everyone else in the industry seems to be handling it and making money. it's been done for years, this isn't a new concept here.

Stand alone patches can also be seemless and for the most part are, your assuming that every patch is not seemless and I'm sorry that's just not the case. That's in the hands of the developer right? some make horrible patches and others don't just like some companies make horrible games and others don't.

I agree and that company would probably be getting complaints from the end users but in all honestly most companies will give you one stand alone patch that will update you from whatever version you are currently running to the latest version. That's usually how it's done, some companies don't do that and shame on them for doing sloppy work but I would still feel alot better even with that system then being forced to use stardocks tool impulse to apply a patch and not be allowed to keep the patch. Remember I'm not saying pull the plug on impulse, keep it running but also supply the patches in stand alone form. I'm not asking for one every week here. If they want to update their game every day and use impulse fine but how about every 6 months putting out a cumlitave stand alone patch that we can download and keep for portability and for a little peace of mind. Is that so unreasonable?

But that fact is irrelevant, the end users don't give a damn how stardock started or what their main line of software is etc etc etc. honestly Whiskey I'm not trying to sound harsh but talking from the customers stand point no one cares about that, they made a game and the fact is that they have entered into the gaming market. They made that choice and yes we are comparing them to their competitors, that's how it works. As a customer I don't want to see customer service sacrificed because they aren't prepared to run the show properly or aren't ready to be in the big leagues. Yes I've seen Steam and I don't buy those games, Steam is another horrible backwards system that will never get my money and correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you don't really like steam either and I know many others don't so what does that tell you? what should that tell Stardock? Forcing your customers to run around in stardocks play pen isn't how it's done, as a company you serve the customer not the other way around.

Then you should keep using impulse and I should be supplied with stand alone patches. Lets make everyone happy. It's just the smart business move.

I don't hate impulse but I love stand alone patches, they're portable, you can use them with no internet required and if stardock should ever bite the dust well I still have my stand alones I can use when I have reinstall my game. They're greeeeeeaaattt! as tony the tiger would say

By all means keep impulse and if you don't have your game archived when it goes offline on you then I don't know what you're going to do. I think you've had a bad experience using some poorly made stand alone patches because your view on them seems a little skewed in my opinion. That's not meant as a slam or anything I appreciate your statements here but totally disagree with them and really think you should think about what happens when impulse goes down and you have to reinstall your software.

Well I look at it much differently. I install my game on my 2nd computer out at say the holiday cabin that has no internet out there and will never have it. I then copy my patch that's only 100mb to my 4gb usb stick. I take my game cd's out there, install the game and apply my one patch that updates my game to the current version, Man life is good, I then think, just imagine what some poor sucker using impulse would do in this situation, they would never be able to do what I just did in a few mins. wow life is good ...then the power goes out at the cabin...craaaappp!

Whiskey you are telling me that coping a 100mb patch to a disc is waste but you're ok with copying a 1.2gb impulse only archive file (or winzip file) and wasting a dvd on that? When you probably have your game cd's right there and all you would have to do is install form your game cds and then apply a 100mb patch from your usb stick? You really think archiving the entire freaking game, unpacking it, reactiving it, connecting to the internet, downloading the patches is the easier way? that's alot of crap to go through. Most games now adays will let you update your game automatically online and download stand alone patches, radical concept hey?

But you know what I'm not even talking about ease of use, I'm simply talking about keeping your stand alone patch so you can use it offline and use it when long after stardock is gone.

Well that's obviously an example, let's say a year or a month. You get the picture.

The problem I have with stardocks philosophy is hey you can download the patches as long as we exist or until we decide not to support the game anymore. Or worse they think that stardock will never die, well look at Enron, they went from 60 billion to bankruptcy in just 24 days. One of the largest companies in the US.

Sorry I want a little more control over my product that I paid for here. Stardock refuses to give us something everyone else gives you and I'm sorry but their reasons for doing it are total balony. look around, everyone else gives out these patches, many give out patches and even have online tools that let you download and apply them online like impulse does.So why can't stardock? it isn't an unreasonable expectation to want stand alone patches. Like I've said it isn't some radical unheard of concept, quite the opposite it's the industry standard, Stardock you are letting your customers down, do something about it. I really hope you're not some fly by night operation run by 1 guy in bamboo shack.

This discussion has happened several times before, most notably when Sins stopped getting stand-alone patches during the Impulse roll out. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but Brad's overall answer to this was that Stardock was better off losing a handful of disgruntled customers than continuing to do patches the old way. Bitch all you want, you're not going to get anywhere.

quote who="WIllythemailboy" reply="38" id="2564985"]
Had I known that they were going to do this I would never have given them my money.

They've lost my confidence until this is resolved and I know I'm not the only one that thinks this way.
This discussion has happened several times before, most notably when Sins stopped getting stand-alone patches during the Impulse roll out. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but Brad's overall answer to this was that Stardock was better off losing a handful of disgruntled customers than continuing to do patches the old way. Bitch all you want, you're not going to get anywhere.[/quote]

 Correction do the patches the current industry standard and widely accepted way. There's big holes in this form of updating the game, I've pointed these out and the counter reasons have been just balony. People with no internet are stuck, can you imagine anyone without internet got screwed over by this decision. They have this attitude that the entire world should have internet and if they don't screw them let them suffer. It's disgusting behaviour

Also the other fact that when impulse goes offline you better have a backup copy of your game because if you reinstall it that's all your going to get is your cd copy version. It really amazes me how people don't really think and don't ask questions. Well go on worshipping stardock and letting them screw you over.

Its obvious that stardock speaks through both sides of their mouth, on one hand they post their gamer rights message giving this artifical impression how they look out for the users yet they refuse to do the most basic of functions. The arguements for stand alone patches are sound, tried and true. its amazing you even have to argue it, it's just damn foolishness.

Providing stand alone patches is a simple and basic expectation for any game provider. Yet they hide behind false reasons for forcing impulse on everyone and then I hear excuses about how small they are and too small to live up to their basic responsability and how it's more expensive to make patches even though the code has been written. It's just balony.

They aren't worth giving the money to and I feel no pity for them when their software gets pirated, they deserve it and frankly all the customers letting them get away with this are just as much to blame and deserve what's coming down the road. There will be lots of "bitching" when stardock plays its next card. "Oh we've decided not to support your game anymore, have a good one thanks for your money."

So fair enough they took my money, at the time they were making stand alone patches and then did a complete turn around and withdrew a very fundemental way of patching my game. This was an unethical move, people that bought into their game got ripped off when they did this. They also make no mention of this bizarre requirement on the game box, you don't find this out until you buy the game and open it, it's deceitful and in my case they just yanked the patches away AFTER the game was bought.

Sorry but red flags go up when a company does unprofessional and unethical behaviour, letting them get away with it just empowers them. Well they will never get my money again.

We may have another candidate for getting a refund here.

As I've pointed out, the CEO/majority owner of the company has said this isn't going to happen. Deal with it; if your method of dealing with it involves boycotting Stardock, they and the community here are better off without you anyway.

More importantly, take a look at what the "rest of the industry" does for other games. EA strips support and activation servers from entire groups of games a few times a year, particularly sports games. Not "company went out of business so I can't get a patch", more like "company doesn't feel like supporting servers any more so they remotely deactivate all existing copies of the game". And this is the sort of model you want more game companies to adopt?

If you don't like Impulse, you should equally hate all forms of online activation, and online activation *IS* the current industry standard. Put up, shut up, or leave. At this point I don't think anyone here much cares which you choose.

It just shows the arrogance of the ceo and company, they can't argue their point and they in fact they are in the wrong here so what's their answer? They don't live up to their duty to the customers they just try to worm out of it. I really think that all the dissatified customers should form together a class action lawsuit against these people. Make an example of them.

You've just totally proved my point for stand alone patches, You download them and keep them and if the company stops supporting the game or goes out of business you still have the patches and if you don't then the chances are pretty good that you can find them on some other site or ask for them in forum. With Stardock you don't even have that option, they've completely taken it away.

Again I'm not talking about activiation, I'm talking about stand alone patches and I'm sorry to point out but you're wrong the online activation is the standard, it isn't. Putting your play cd in the drive is what is commonly used, registering a game entitles you to additional support options but it never hinders you from playing the game or getting it's patches.

haha well the typical non thinking, dead headed fanatical fan response right there. Don't pick on poor too small to live up to customer standards Stardock. Spare me, you may not care since either you are an employee or just a die hard fan so upset at the idea that someone would have the nerve to ask stradock why they aren't servicing the customers as good as their competitors, but you go right on worshipping them and arguing with people that are really looking out for the customers interest. Stardock as 20million net worth and over 50 employees looking out for theirs, honestly wake up and give your head a shake.

Just fyi, In your Cabin with no internet example... You install your standalone patch and then you can not play until you install inpulse and verify it...  But... you have no internet... NOOO!

Sadly most DRM is getting very very evil.  Like the many games that are out and comming out that require you to actualy be connected while you play a single player game.  I hear Steam you actualy have to be logged on (and on the internet) to play.  While I feel for you wanting the "standalone" patches they are sadly going the way of casette tapes.... I googled a few of the games I currently got on my computer and not through impulse... Not one of them have a standalone patch either.  Makes me sad. Also Please realize a lot of what impulse puts on it's servers are NOT their games..  So you want a standalone patch you need to go to that publisher and ask THEM to do it as that's their game and Stardock legaly can't do things that isn't in their contract.

And Brad already said that if they go out away they will keep 1 server up with a patch to unlock the games if they were to close their doors.  (Note, Their games, not all games they sell!  Just ones they own!)   Could they go away without doing that? Sure. It could happen.  But that's not what you really care about.  You basicly want a non-DRM copy and updates to the game to "Store for later."  Sadly I don't know of any major or semi-major gaming company that does that.  If you do, Please name 5 since it's the "standard" And they better have been released recently or people will pull out the pitch forks

So please list 5 games that let you download all patches from v 1.0 in a standalone form and do not require you to be on the internet to install/activate them. 

Have a nice day!

Willy don't say that.  I find it all very entertaining.

njareg,

I believe I posted before the forums went "boom" a week ago....so I'll try to recreate (at least the basic message of) my lost post...

You keep stating that SD should give you stand-alone patches "the way every other company" is doing it.  I beg to disagree, in fact I believe that if you care to look closely you can't help but notice that the writing has been on the proverbial wall for stand-alone patches for quite some time now.

Every big game DEV/DIST is currently struggling with one thing only, not IF to go the route of digital distribution/management rather HOW.

For instance....

EA = Autopatcher

UBI = Autopatcher

Atari = Autopatcher

Massive (aquired by UBI) = Autopatcher

.....etc. etc.

Plus those not listed above (as well as some listed) already use STEAM and/or IMPULSE! 

Sorry mate, stand-alone patches are exactly where they belong......in the past, with dial-up internet, VHS and cell-phones that aren't SMART! 

the Monk

But it's not just a matter of Stardock "working a little harder".  More work means employing and paying someone to do the work, which means a higher price for the end product, a longer wait for patches, or a longer development time, and so on.  Extra work is always something that should be avoided, as long as there's other more important things to get done.  (And there always will be, in the case of any duplicate patching effort.)

Anyway, personally I'm not willing to pay anything more when buying from Stardock just so they can afford to offer standalone patches... and since Stardock is doing well sales wise, the market seems to agree.

If you, and enough people who feel the same way, really want standalone patches that bad-- you could try and convince Stardock to offer paid-for patches you purchase at the store.  But I strongly suspect that you're in a tiny minority of people who actually want this, and I also suspect you wouldn't be willing to "pay for bug fixes" (you'd actually be paying for someone to package up a standalone patch for you, not for the patch itself).  Anyway I don't think the market demand for what you want is really there.

Based on this it seems like you're not listening - they are saying that the code is not written.  It is extra work (unless you're saying that Stardock is telling us lies), which translates into a higher cost for the end product, for us consumers. Impulse looks for different files and downloads newer versions as needed.  It's been stated already that downloaded executable patches don't work like that.  They might even be saving some money on not having to pay for some 3rd-party patching/installation software such as InstallShield + maint/support.

Seriously, Impulse is nice.  You should give it a chance.

Exactly, So you see the problem then and yet here you are defending them?

Well I don't think that patches are going out the window, this is a test. The industry is testing us to see how much were willing to put up with. If you've ever heard of a concept called SaaS, if not I encourage everyone to google "Software as a service". This is the direction these kinds of things are taking us and yes you have the power to say something. If you let it pass then they win. 

I have no issue logging into their website or calling an automated service to register my software ONCE, in fact proving I own the game I have no issue with at all provided I can download patches I can keep and that I do not need to be connected to the internet while I play the game.

No just give me the patch NOW please, thank you very much. I do not want to hope that they will release them if/when they start to sink. That's nothing more then a poke and a promise.

haha I love the pitch fork idea, here I am trying to help all you guys and you have your torches and pitch forks ready for who? not the industry thats making millions and taking you all to the cleaners but for poor little me? lol

Command and Conquer 4 and this is an interesting one because yes they do have an autopatcher like stardock, but hold on to your pants everyone because these guys really have it together, they ALSO have an FTP site and guess what you can download from there?? yup stand alone patches.  

World of Warcraft:  Now this is a good one, it's been out for awhile but is changing and adapting all the time. Here is a game that REQUIRES an internet connection to even play and yes even they offer you their patches in stand alone form. Go figure hey?

Mass Effect 2: Two thumbs up

Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening:

Silent Hunter 5: Battle of the Atlantic

WarBirds: Dogfights

Well as I've said that my main beef here is there is that I cannot get a patch in standalone form. So I've listed your five games that give you stand alone patches, actually I even threw in an extra one for you. 
 

Yup you too
 

I'm sorry but that's just a bunch of balony, the patches were being made up until version 1.4. The code has been written! It's not rocket science. You don't think when they make these games there aren't planning for the future, every single developer knows that any game produced will at some point require patching. Don't you think they would have made accomodations for this? They are going to make it as easy as possible to apply a patch to their game and yes I'm sure they've designed galciv2 so they could easily do so.

Impulse has to apply the patch the exact same way a stand alone patcher would. I've read the post on how impulse is suppost to be different and totally rolled my eyes up. Like I said it isn't rocket science, the _only_ thing the differs the impulse system from a stand alone patch install is the fact that it downloads the package over the internet directly instead of having it packaged with an installer. That's it, you can talk about checksums and how it directly applies the patch until you're blue in the face but that's again just abunch of double talk. A stand alone patcher does the exact same thing my friend. No difference. Impulse just directly connects to the stardock server and grabs the package and applies it for you, I'm sorry but that's isn't some amazing and magical cutting edge thing, it's just scooping the same poop a with a different scoop.

That's the sad part, you already have. You've paid them full price and they aren't even giving you the 100% full support treatment. Open your eyes sir, stop worshipping for a minite and start using your brains.

No I'm not paying them for something everyone else gives you, How does it cost them to package it? Think about it! I personally could use winzip and make a self extracting archive and put it up for download in minutes and believe it or not I've seen lots of stand alone patches that are nothing more then self extracting executables. It doesn't take extra labour because you can even write a script to auto archive it, I mean really it's a pathetic excuse to say it's costing them money to "package" it. Man I laughed at that one. They may have to purchase a license for an archiver but seeing as they have impulse already which already has archiving technology they could use that same archiving technology into their stand alone patch installer. But lets face it they've already covered all that since they were producing stand alone patches up until 1.4 so its moot.

No I'm afraid it's you who's not listening here. I've said time and time again WHY impulse is bad. The code is written, open your eyes your using it every time you use impulse, they even admit they made stand alone patches until v1.4.

There's nothing to try on impulse, it's geared to be a brain dead tool that does a very small function for you. It would be nothing for stardock to give you stand alone patches AND still keep impulse for those that like it. Check CNC4 they do that, so why can't stardock.

No this is the beginning of something much worse, are everyone that blindly lets stardock take away a portion of your support service is just openning the door for nazi ideas like SAAS (Software as a Service) to come in. They want to see if the users will let them get away with killing some support off, then they will try other ideas until the vail of saving you money or its more effecient or some other crazy reason.

The fact is you've paid full price for a game that was giving you on demend patch service AND producing stand alone patches. Other games have done this to but stardock removed their stand alone patch service, now you didn't save any money they just took away some of your support but you don't care or worse you just lapped up their reasons for taking away that support.

None of the reasons I've heard in here hold any real water:

1) Impulse prevents piracy....it doesn't you can easily get around this. Most hackers have to hack into the code, but with impulse all they need is someones account username and password. Impulse is practically hacker friendly!

2) Impulse saves you money? Really well when I bought the game I had stardock central available which did the exact same thing as impulse does AND I could download stand alone patches too. So wheres my savings? Do I get money back? Did you? no?? How is impulse saving me money? I didn't see galactic civ 2 drop in shelf price at the store, it seemed on par with other games.....hmmm not seeing the savings here.

3) Its cheaper as packaging costs more money.....hmm really? how? Packaging costs? Well last time I looked stand alone patches weren't shrinkwrapped and boxed, they don't have to be shipped. It must be all of that extra work for them to make it available on their website... ahh the bandwidth costs yes those are a killer, all those people download stand alone patches must really kill the system, People downloading via impulse must magically be using some other form of down...no it uses the stardocks bandwidth to? interesting. Well I've seen lots of developers make their patches available on FREE services such as fileplanet, in fact that's an even better solution. No stardock bandwidth needed there. 

4) Impulse is good becuase it saves stardock the time from having to write a patch installer.  Now this is a funny one because not only have they already written this it's being used by you already...impulse IS that installer. Also they hate to mention the fact that the patcher was created already back in the 1.4 version days. I mean how complicated can it get, it applies the package data, it's pretty cut & dry stuff.  Also most companies create the code and save it as a template, it gets written and it's used every time they make a patch.

I think stardock is laughing at you and everyone that just buys their cheap excuses. I'm not trying to insult but get you out of the worshipping mode and get you into prudent thinking for yourself tired of getting ripped off customer mode. Come on make these guys step up to the plate and earn their money.

Well guys it's been a slice, I'm going to stop visiting this post as I feel I've said everything that needs to be said. I really think everyone is not getting full service, not just me. You may agree with me or not agree, of course that's your decision.

I think stardock has created a very good game and yes I agree that impulse is not as evil as steam BUT it's still a bad thing. I don't appreciate being treated like a criminal when I've bought the game and too many things are getting sacrificed in the name of the almighty DRM. I have the feeling stardock wants to be #1 in customer service, as a company you need to adapt to the needs of your customers, it's not good practice to sacrifice a percentage of your users when you don't have to, it just requires rethinking the situation and accomidating.

I give stardock credit for making a fantastic game and for doing something that I've never seen any other company do and that is allow you to download the entire game over the internet for the life of the product. I say hats off to them for that but I strongly disagree with refusing to realase stand alone patches. This is an error in judgement and I would welcome stardock to find some medium where they will rethink this decision. I'm sure drm and the delivery of stand alone patches can be satisfied somehow.

I do strongly disagree with no stand alones and have tried not to let my zeal for this subject turn into insulting people. That's not my purpose and if I have insulted anyone I do appologise for that as I do not believe in rolling that way. I think I've laid out a good fair argument here and hope to see stardock rethink their position.

Anyways thank you everyone for your input even if you disagreed totally with my argument.

Peace and happy gaming. This will be my last post in this thread.

*sigh* You really just don't get it do you njareg? Do you know WHY Stardock has standalone patches up to certain versions of a product? Because Impulse wasn't fully ready yet, and Stardock Central was already out the door.

I will also disprove your statement about how standalone patches look at the checksum and replace the necessary files. Take for example EA's Battlefield 2142. The version 1.5 patch for the game (it will patch any previous version to v1.5) is a whopping 535 MB. Now we look at the Impulse D/L of the v1.0/v1.05->v1.191 of the game Sins of a Solar Empire. All of some 300 MB.

It may not seem like much of a difference, but you also have to consider- it takes longer to distribute standalone patches because they 1) must be packaged as an installer. Impulse checksums against their master file servers, thus downloading only the files you need. 2) once said installer is produced, they must then host it on either their own servers or have it hosted by a file-sharing site (FileFront, MegaUpload, RapidShare, ad nauseam); and 3) they must then advertise that a new patch is out.

With Impulse, all they have to do is upload the changed files/game executables to the file server. Say I haven't been paying attention to the forums and miss 2 or 3 patches. I then decide to open Impulse because I want to see what's new, and the Updates tab flashes, thus telling me I have updates for my games. A standalone installer definitely CAN'T tell you when new updates are out.

Another thing I think you forget about is, no matter whose server hosts the patches, it's got to be payed for somehow. And I don't know about you, but I personally would rather get my patches directly through Impulse, because there is SIGNIFICANTLY less chance of getting something unpleasant. After all, with standalone patches, an ill-intentioned person could download it, tamper with it so that it installs a malicious piece of software in an inconspicuous way, and then upload it to a site that doesn't have the patch yet.

Hard to do that with a service that checksums the files and only downloads the ones that were changed or added. Also, applying a standalone patch multiple times (in case something was corrupted/damaged) can be time-consuming because standalone patches tend to be installers (in my experience anyways), and NOT self-extracting archives. And besides, a large, standalone patch may have a TON of heavily compressed files, thus, a 500 MB patch may be unpacking 1-2 gigabytes of data and then copying it into your game folder. With Impulse, it is easy to fix a corrupted install, what you download is almost always what you will have copied/overwritten to your drive.

And as for whether or not I would rather copy a bunch of (possibly very large) standalone patches versus archiving with Impulse and then copying/verifying, then yes, I would rather use Impulse, because then I have a rapidly employable copy of the game. No need to have 2 portable media units (discs/USBs/whatever), when I can have just one, especially since multi-GB (2-4) discs are pretty inexpensive. Plus, I know EXACTLY what's on there, and know EXACTLY how to set it up. Having a large number of successive standalone patches to install can be a very ANNOYING experience I would think.

Actually, I just wanted to see you write out another long and angry flame again, this thread is too entertaining to let it die so soon. 

Seriously though, really, just let it go.  We aren't talking about getting screwed over for a multi-thousand dollar purchase or something here, we're talking games sold for $2.00-$50.00.  If you don't like the policy, buy other products.  If enough people agree that the policy is unacceptable (doesn't seem to be the case), Stardock will have to change the policy once they realize they're losing sales.  If you're willing to tolerate it because Stardock is offering products you can't get anywhere else, fine.  If you get used to the convenience of Impulse and even start to like it, great.

It's nothing personal, nothing to do with greed or laziness, it's just business.