Why do Advent players ignore Guardians these days?

actually that game i didnt have enough feed nor econ to spam anything else even my hull and shield research was retarded

i usualy go for guardians but you need a progen to get them

and you actually didn't win the battles ^^ that immense shield dishd was on your 4 caps you lost and that sb witch survived because of a lack of coordination

you had a lot more feed then me so i had to go no spaming lums, guardians just die if you don't have 1 or 2 progen so you need a constant feed to dish em out and that was impossible for me

but you did very well i was always runing around, like that roid i lost 5 times ^^

Guardians are extremely costly, both in actual costs and supply. Research Guardians themselves costs quite a bit of time and resources (Three shield techs, then Guardians), and Repulse just adds to the cost. I can see that many people are just finding Illums more cost-effective than bothering with Guardians.

EDIT: Accidental double-post.

actually cost wise the first battle you use guardians effectivelly you get all the ressources you invested in back since they save a lot of ship

my problem is that it's unusable without an econ or/and frig facts close to battle or using double progen or all of that ^^

they die in seconds when faced with serious firepower if they don't have a shield regen on them so you need to spam them and that's costy, very costy

I'm aware; if the three of you had been able to hit in a coordinated fashion, I'd have been screwed.  Fact is, I got to single each of you guys out and managed to survive and level up my caps, and then Revenge had to fall back turning it into a 2v1.  Combined with your failed rush at my starbase, that turned things around.  I realize you guys dropped the ball and I only got back up because of that, but I'll take it. 

As for shield damage, it cannot be explained by the starbase and caps alone.  I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but I had approximately double the shield damage absorbed of any other player.

Money-wise, I'm aware I got more feed than you, but you also got a lot more material support than I did.  Every time I tried to make a decisive push against you someone would show up and turn it into a 2v1.  In fact, it wasn't until I put up that starbase that my feed levels significantly exceeded your's (that was also where the "2v1" issue started to come in), and I already had guardians researched by this point.  On the other hand, I had just lost a key battle at the volcanic and lost most of my fleet just prior to that, and I think getting guardians out on the field too quickly was part of my error.  On the other hand, if I'd waited for five or six guardians to complete and just let you have the volcanic, that would have been another matter entirely...

This wasn't intended as a knock on you.  I've been noticing this a lot lately from many players.  Two Halcyons followed by illuminator spam is unsurprisingly quite common right now.

@Swordsalmon

I didn't get repulse until very late, and ironically I never used it even once I had it.  Both my opponents were spamming illuminators, so the purpose of repulse was actually to use the guardian as a "sacrificial lamb" to cover the retreat of my fleet.  As for cost, I'm talking of fleets which already have 40 or 50 illuminators; we're talking size large enough that scale starts to have a big impact on the viability of area of effect abilities.

yes yes i'm a bit rude without wanting to usualy

may be because i have trouble in english sometimes so i have a hard time finding the good words sry bout that

but yes you're right i failed on that sb first time because of his 20 kanraks and that was a massive loss to my fleet

after that i didn't get the bomber suport i was supposed to have and lose most of what i had too

the thing in that game was that i lost my fleet twice but you lost half fleets maybe 4 or 5 times while dealing same amount of damage so basicly i had my hands full rebuilding, going guardians was out of my economy/feed capacity

i would have of course with a good progen suport and a better air

that game ended because i dumped not because we droped it, we were kinda wining, i held you off 1v1 while we had 3 fleets on your econ

i think that we would have won if we didn't take major risks or do critical mistakes

In the first big battle over the volcanic, you pretty much wiped out my fleet.  That was my big blunder, and I spent the rest of the game recovering from it.  I had just invested a bunch of cash in researching guardians and bought my progen, but I only had one guardian available at the time.  I should have fallen back and waited for more to produce.  Instead, I tried to fight and ended up losing most of my fleet and my Progen.

Honestly, though, if you had skipped the volcanic and directly assaulted my homeworld, my starbase wouldn't have been upgraded in time and you'd have won.  That was your biggest blunder.  Instead, I was able to recover and since I already had guardians researched that gave me a big advantage in the coming fight.

I think the question here is when does it become appropriate to invest in guardians and a progen to support illuminators.  In hindsight, it appears you waited too long, and I didn't wait long enough.  I got crushed in an early battle because I invested in that tech but hadn't gotten the units on the field.  You were getting pushed back in the late game by a superior fleet and couldn't afford to bring out the higher tech units since you had to constantly pump illuminators.

We'll never know, but I think you were on the verge of collapse.  When you dumped, I had more illuminators than you on the battlefield, plus a big chunk of flaks, plus guardians, plus two level 5 progenitors, and I'd rebuilt my Halcyon.  As soon as one of my Progens reached level 6 (only a few minutes after you dumped), I promoted that Halcyon to level 8.  You'd have needed serious feed to have survived that.

As for the overall position, the real problem there was Koala, who took nearly an hour and a half to defeat an AI.  As a result, our pocket was exposed when it shouldn't have been, and Fabulous took a 2v1 when he shouldn't have.  Heck, if Koala had been competent, Revenge should have been taking a 2v1 and been pushed on the defensive. 

The right time to get guardians depends a lot on the situation.  I personally love to use them given the opportunity because you can cut down the effective dps against your fleet with proper usage so you can divide the enemies fleet and work on it a piece at a time.  If someone is leaning heavily on HC then that is the time to get them.  I use them when I want to seperate out hoshis or caps from a fleet.  I also use them to augment my defense of SBs(either pushing towards or away).  I also use them when I have a larger fleet against me.  It is least beneficial when there are a lot of carriers/SC involved.

[_]-Greyfox

I'm more talking about the guardian shield projection rather than repulse.  I didn't have repulse researched until the very end of the game, and I never really had an opportunity to use it.  All my nearby enemies were Advent.  I was more using shield projection to absorb that side-beam damage, and combining that with shield restore to keep everything topped up.  I don't think anyone would argue that guardians weren't extremely beneficial, the real question is when it's worth the cost to bring them out.

With shield projection, progens are a must.  If you dont have a progen for it then its a waste of money for the most part.  It is best to use shield projection when you are against a starbase or strike craft so the damage can be spread out and shield restore is more useful.  Shield restore becomes more powerful with the spreading because when you are in a regular fight things tend to be focus fired and you are really only healing 1 or 2 ship shields for the duration of shield restore.  Generally AM is spent better with repulse but there are a few sitatuations when it is better to not repulse and tank it better with shield projection.  Namely when you are trying to crack an SB without strike craft.

[_]-Greyfox

I use guardians as part of a combo with radiance battleships. I use shield projection to tank the damage from animosity while the rest of my fleet pounds on theirs with impunity. Then I follow up with cleansing briliance. Combined arms will trump a one dimensional army 9 times out of 10.

As I said in the other thread, if your Radiance is surviving that and you don't have a Progen using shield restore, your enemy has a small fleet with way too few LRF.  Against good opponents, animosity is worthless.  You can cancel it by giving a new order, but furthermore the Radiance is not anything special as a tank.  Above average as far as capital ships go, but capital ships aren't superb tanks, and are actually pretty easy prey to long range frigates.

A better combination is to use the guardian shield projection to cover your fleet.  This will protect everyone, not just the capital ships.  Combine this with your Progenitor with shield restore to keep the guardians and your units topped up.  This effective combo is one of the few ways to tank large fleets effectively with minimal casualties.