Buff Skirmishers

I think all races take a heavy nerf in different things and the Vasari may not have a good LF but their abilities like Phase Stabilizers and RA give them a huge advantage when it comes to fighting the TEC and Advent. Just got to learn that somethings are worse off then others when it comes to equality of parrallel units.

double post.............stupid forums went boom.

Yup, Skirmishers are pretty bad at what they do.  They're supposed to be the "tougher" light frigate, but seeing as light frigates are pretty flimsy as it is (that is to say LRF rip them to shreds) that's not a huge selling point at all.  I definitely support a damage buff for this beleagured unit type.

This is the break down of DPS per command cost:

• Disciples:  8.5 / 4 = 2.125
• Cobalts: 9.5 / 5 = 1.9
• Skirmishers:  10.5 / 7 = 1.5

As you can see, Skirmishers are right out of the ballpark.

Allegiance, I understand your point about Phase Stabilizers, but you seem to be on a different subject than us.  Phase Stabilizers are a late game tech, and a pretty expensive one at that.

Skirmishers are your early game unit, which you often depend on to get you to late game, where you would be able to build Phase Stabilizers etc.

I don't mind Vasari having a small disadvantage in the LF department for balance reasons, but the difference seems far from small.  Because of the large command cost, the enemy team can literally have nearly 2 times as many Light Frigates as you in an early game battle, where you would have to upgrade your fleet capacity to match that.  The Light Frigate you get for your money definitely does not turn out to be equal in terms of usefulness and power to the other two races, and to such a large extent that you get a huge disadvantage early game.  Late game you also get hurt as well because you often rely on Light Frigates to take out certain unit types which I often see spammed (Flak Frigates, Carrier Cruisers, etc.) and which are extremely hard to deal with without them.  I'm not asking them to be made equal to the other two races, just worth their high cost in resources and fleet space.

no my point is each faction has somekindof disadvantage or advantage over the others. Im willing to guess that the large difference between LF is for good reason. You guys might want to consider the other abilities of the Vasari at the time LF are the major workhorse in the game. That might give you an idea of why the Skirmishers are not up to par. Phase Stabilizers werent a direct comparision as much as an example of an overwhelming advantage.

Thats how it is supposed to be, but the Vasari are disadvantaged in EVERYTHING early game. Skirmisher is much weaker then other LFs. Assailant is much weaker then other LRFs. Navigator is the weakest scout. Sentinel is the weakest flak. Space Egg has by far the weakest colonise.

In the early game, the Vasari have NOTHING to their advantage. Not eco, not scouts, not LFs, not LRFs, not flak.

If skirmishers are meant to be pathetic, then why aren't assailants or flak or scouts super strong? A major disadvatage muct be balanced with a major advantage at the same stage in the game. Anything else is not balanced.

This is more than a disadvantage.  This is a unit whose damage is completely out of the ballpark when comapred with its equivalents.  It's exorbitantly expensive and incredibly weak, to the point at which it barely does its job. The Vasari in general are seriously disadvantaged early game with weaker unit types.  Yes, they get some late game gems (phase missiles and phase stabilizers) but this doesn't change the fact that unless they hit a motherload of riches in the form of early neutrals, they have an uphill battle early on.

I find that I completely agree with this statement.  If you are weak from one aspect in your early game, you should be strong or at least mediocre in others.  Vasari somehow seems to be weak in all of their early game aspects, with few redeeming qualities, at least til mid-game. 

The only problem is that those redeeming qualities really don't outshine the other races, or really even make them dominant at that stage of the game.

To say that Vasari should get a horrible early game because of "Phase Stabilizers" is a terrible argument.  Phase Stabilizers are nice, but every race has their late-game advantages, except that the other two races have a much easier time getting there, which kind of defeats that argument in a balanced game.

Besides, Advent gets their incredible culture domination ability, TEC gets a global 3000 damage nuke, I mean its not like every race isn't without their late-game advantages, in my opinion they are all on par.  They certainly aren't inferior enough to Vasari to justify giving them such a crap early game.  I don't understand this balance decision.

I my personal "Vasari mod" I've reduced their fleet supply to six. They tend to be about balanced with that little change.

how are their scouts weak? they are the only scout ship that can actually take control of nuetrals.........the Orky, is the only SB that can move, The only faction that can jump from one planet to another without an actual phase lane.  The only faction that can call in a albeit random fleet from no wheres by only paying for it, no waiting for all the ships to amass. And all I hear is how badass the Kortul and Jarrasul are. No ones going to be completely happy with the game, but i dont think that adding anything to the skirmishers is going to actually do anything useful. Someone else will just move on to the next thing they think is unbalanced and complain til that is redone, and before you know it, theres a need for a whole new rebalance of the majority of the game like this last one.

The devs ignored this issue before. They didn't fix it in the last patch, so I doubt it'll be fixed.

I pointed it out months ago

And i made the arguement in the one post the devs definitely read

Who knows. Maybe it'll be fixed.

As in their combat capabilities, not in reference to their neutral-capturing capabilities.  They deal slightly more damage than other scouts, but not enough to overcome their greater cost.  Their health is about the same, despite being more expensive than the other scouts.

i think allegience's point is that the game is (or should be) balanced "by race," not "by unit."  i think that's how it should be as well.  now, whether or not the devs succeeded in balancing it it all is certainly up for debate.

i don't mind vasari getting the short end of the stick with skirmishers, early game, etc. provided they are balanced out somewhere else.  the problem is, they don't seem to be.  RA was nerfed to hell and back.  hell, even after the severe nerf, they nerfed it YET AGAIN apparently, because it used to give you overseers and subverters.  now it doesn't (at least with my games).

i don't hear much about this, but personally i think one thing that severely disadvantages the vasari is their support cruisers.  TEC get hoshis at tier 3.  advent get guardians at tier 3.  vasari get... nothing.  they have to wait until really late to get their support cruisers, and you need tier 5 or 6 to get the subverters' distortion field.  now, it would be entirely fine and dandy to have to wait so long, provided (again) that these units were "worth the wait."  the problem is, they aren't.  subverters were nerfed to hell and back ages ago, and i've always thought that overseers and subs required so much micro as to make them almost useless in "real games."

so the point is, it would be fine to have vasari as the "weak early race who booms at the end."  you could take this into account when selecting them in a game, i.e. vasari might not be the pick of choice on a small map, but on a big map they could be.  but it seems the "boom" never comes.

in short, balancing "by race" is great... provided balance is actually achieved.  sure, throw my name in - i'm for the devs having a look at vasari balance.  rather than just reblance the skirmisher (more of a "unit to unit" rebalance), i would be more in favor of having the devs look at vasari support cruisers and ultimate techs like RA, phase stabilizers, etc.  the high tier level of vasari support cruisers is not justified by their suckiness.  tier 3 hoshi's rule all over tier 5 vasari support cruisers... where the heck is the balance in that?

RA never ever gave you support units (no overseers or subverters).

I tend to agree skirmishers are weak but I think their intended use should not be without reintegration.I think the devs designed it this way.They the only lf that can heal themselves and its at tier2.I never use them in mass without it.In a lf to lf battle especially since the buff I would think reintegration would have a sizeable effect.Plus you get buffs on your hull.

True. Reintegration means skirmishers should do slightly less damage compared to the other races, but they lowerd the dps too much. Argueably the skirmisher should do 14 dps (as opposed to 10.5). I would say the happy middle ground to accomodate the skirmisher (as I've argued before) is 12.5. BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

In my experience if you compare to other races their lf's they suck costwise even with reintegration.

Grtz,
Flipkik 

No.  Not true!  They get LRFs (assailants) with ONE lab.  So build them, not the crappy skirmisher, or skip to Carriers (they have the most durable strikecraft).  They get the almighty Orkulus starbase with TWO labs!  This is really their ace in the hole.  This SB has an overpowering advantage over all else.  If needed, it can be used defensively early on, and in some cases effectively offensively.  As mentioned earlier, they get neutrals easily.  This can be a huge early economic advantage.  And they get decent eco upgrades with ONE lab.  And their low level Cap ships are good.  And...?  IMO, they are the best race for rushing. 

Not meaning to pick on you Jule, but I got to admit, that I get tired of these whining threads.

1-lab assailants is nice, but since quick-start it's been a very modest benefit, most useful when you already have 2 civic labs for ice/volcanic access and don't have the time or effort to access the next level.

Fact remains that in any realistic situation Vasari are going to need 2 military labs for flaks very soon, since mass assailant will quickly tempt a response of scouts from the opponent.

Bah! A further night of unnecessary losses to these supposedly 'nerfed' illuminators.  Had the Marza been 'nerfed' like that, illuminators wouldn't survive a barrage to have their shields reboosted.

I am convinced that what is wrong with the game, apart from a balance patch that has left the game badly bugged, is the lack of an elite warlords lobby, where matters such as the bristle of whiskers can be discussed.  Put some fire into the new bods, let's have online achivements as well, don't want to molly them, noone wants to fight for hours to become an intergalactic care assistant.  Pah!

That said- and rightly so- if there is imbalance it will not be solved by a modest change to the weapons of skirmishers.  All light frigates are more or less useless.   They cost too much and also take up more cap than the LRF, which destroy them.  I still find the cap costs of light frigates to be inexplicable- LRF are higher tech units which should by their nature consume more supply.  If all light frigates were reduced one supply point, skirmishers could be reduced two- with a slight weapons boost.  Even then a cost reduction of 20% would be needed to make light frigates viable, rather than just a surprise for isolated carriers.  Even a few LRF have enough of a range advantage to stop these units performing any other role.   

More general balance is very dependent on the map, as we began to explore in another thread.  All-planet single star maps, while present in the set maps shouldn't be considered the norm?  With enough neutrals and on the multistar maps there is far more balance.  On my maps I have a mix of planets and neutrals that I consider optimal, but some of the other custom maps have almost no neutrals?

However, if the nerfs to the subverters and the returning fleets hadn't been so heavy, balance wouldn't have been an issue.  It would seem simplest to revert most of the nerfs?  The returning ships should be free- otherwise they are useless in a crisis.  Perhaps an increased cooldown, or smaller fleets?  As it is the tech is a complicated drawback if you are winning, and far too expensive to set up if you are losing.  

How about another 'balance patch' where the original Marzas and subverters are 'nerfed' like the illuminators have been?  Enough!  Where is the hotfix for the bug?!

My instinct is to say Amen, but you have to admit the Vasari got the short end of the stick here. TEC and Advent scouts both MAUL Assailants early. Skirmishers are pathetic light frigs. The scouts are best used for neutrals, cause they suck at combat.

Without a sufficient scout, I feel Vasari is vulnerable to an early game rush from Illums/LRMS. You can say starbase all you want, but that is a floating defense stuck in one gravity well. If the game is quick and fast enough early enough, that starbase won't cut it, and you'll need feed. If diplomacy does what I think it's going to, feed won't be such an easy thing to get.

The light frig is also laughable. Tell me. Have you ever felt threatened by someone sending skirmishers at you?

These two factors are what swing the decision for me to NOT play Vasari.

Okay, I forgot about that.

However, how can access to SBs with 2 labs and easy access to neutrals justify a much weaker colonise bonus, overpriced scouts, extremely underpowered LFs, assailants that are much less cost effective then other LRFs and overpriced flak?

Oh yes it did.  I know for a fact it used to give subverters.  They wouldn't do the mini-hop and shutdown without the research, but they would come.

Bottom line is since skirmishers suck, vasari have no easy way of killing carriers/flak/support cruisers until enforcers. You can argue labs and advantages til the cows come home, but Vasari are weak without a good counter to those units. Orkulus? Not gonna kill those carriers, and theyll keep coming back. Assailants? Scout spam, flak spam, carrier spam, and your skirms are not going to deliver. Sure Vasari get those things earlier than the other races, but they'll have to tech up to tier 5 in order to take on fleets of tier 2,3,and 4 units.

When you're countering with lfs, you want them to be able to KILL things, I mean actually do some damage to that carrier/flak fleet, so that when he starts rolling out LRFs to compensate, hes already taken some nasty losses. But as it stands, Skirms cant deal the kinda damage needed, so when those LRFs come along and start picking them off, you havent done any major damage.

RAs proposed +2 dps would make a huge difference.

Personally I'd have them do the most DPS of a light frig and not have reintegration, but thats probably to much to ask for.

Sad thing is, I cant think of 1 vasari unit that is (cost aside) significantly BETTER than its TEC or Advent counterparts. I mean Advent have lums and carriers, TEC have hoshis and kodies, what do the Vasari have? Orkies? Yeah theyre tough, but they arent units, you can't make a fleet of them. Subverters? Maybe, if you're good at micro, but good luck rolling those out quickly. I say give em a unit they can be proud of.

Look for Skirms later this week on the New PSCF

Bombers.  Phase missiles are amazing

Late-game, bomber-spam is a Vasari player's ace in the hole.  Makes capital ships (cept Halcyon or stacked Kols) disappear.