AI Quick Surrender Syndrome

from Stardock Forums

Hi all,

I've seen this topic posted before, but am wondering if anyone (including Stardock) has found a way to fix this.  A friend and I were playing against the computer (2 humans, one AI) and each had basically conquered our own solar system (of 3 total).  We had an advantage, but certainly not insurmountable for the AI since he had his own system, too (and since we're newbies).  But when it was time to go smoke the bad guy, he inexplicably gave up.  I think he might have whimpered, too.  Probably the least satisfying victory I've experienced in a computer game.

Has anyone figured out how to stop the madness?  Or, if not, can someone tell me what's the best way to plead with Stardock to fix this in the next game patch?  It seems so easy to solve - just a toggle (AI surrender: on/off).  I've got Sins and Entrenchment, and have flat-out loved the game...until I discovered this.  It's frankly very disappointing not to be able to carry the battle all the way through to its proper and complete destructive conclusion.

A little help?  Thanks a lot.

9,571 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

The surrender behavior is annoying.  Unfortunately it's very quick to surrender in some situations, but in others it just won't surrender at all and forces you to wipe out every one of its planets systematically even after its fleet has been eradicated and it has no capability to replace it.

What I find is that the AI tends to surrender when it's vastly outnumbered and doesn't have the resources to actually rebuild its fleet to a comparable level.  I have no doubts in your case that the AI was in a hopeless position.  I'm willing to bet it threw its entire army against a starbase, got it killed, and then couldn't replace those units.  The problem (if you're following) isn't that it surrenders, but rather that it got its entire fleet killed leading it to an unwinnable situation relatively early.

The best way to get the AI to "play it out" is to keep your fleet sizes relatively small.  If you build up a single massive super-fleet (1000 command or higher) then the AI is very likely to just throw in the towel if it can't turn you back.  Moreover, the AI will usually try to match its fleet size to your own.  This will often push it to high upkeep levels that it can't sustain, meaning that if you kill its fleet, it loses the ability to replace it (setting up the surrender scenario you describe).  However, if you attack sooner with a smaller fleet, it will often keep trying and will seldom surrender prematurely.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

an interesting (and likeable) tip Darvin. I'll have to try that.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Basically I'm telling you to play like I do (strike fast and early before your fleet really builds up to a massive level).  The AI almost never surrenders for me when I do this.

Often times when I'm playing larger games against many AI's, I will kill one or two early on with a rush.  These AI's usually won't surrender and at all.  If they do surrender, it's when I've killed all their fleet and structures and am bombarding their last planets (they are completely and totally out of fight by this point).  I will then consolidate and build up my forces.  Here's the thing: when I go on a my eventual rampage with a huge fleet, the AI's mostly fold after losing a couple outlying planets.  This is entirely different from the early game AI which refuses to surrender even when totally and utterly broken with no meaningful assets remaining.

As a result, I've concluded that the AI surrender conditions must have something to do with large fleets.  Possibly it's due to unsustainable upkeep that the AI has found itself in, or possibly it's due to a larger and more intimidating player fleet.  In any case, early game wars are likely to be more fulfilling against the AI.

 

While I often berate the artificial idiocy, the player is also partially part of the problem.  Often times the AI has lost massive amounts of units throughout the game by throwing itself against defenses.  The player could have turned around and killed it numerous times before this, but continued to build a stronger economy and stronger fleet.  When the player finally does decide to make his final push against the AI, the advantage he has is simply enormous.  Often times the economic war was won hours earlier. 

The message I'm sending him is that if you were able to kill the AI two hours ago, but have become ten times stronger since, you shouldn't be surprised when the AI completely folds. 

 


Sorry for the ranting.  I'll spare you further text and just write further in the diplomacy suggestions board ^_^

 

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Hubere, the situation you are describing seems like a legitimate AI surrender.  Darvin is right in that the AI is designed to surrender when it finds itself hopelessly outnumbered.  In a 2v1 game like you're describing, I'm sure you and your allies combined fleet was much larger than the AI's fleet.  Fleet imbalance gets amplified if the AI has just lost their whole fleet assaulting a starbase or a heavily defended planet, like Darvin said.

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Darvin and Whirlwind,

Extremely helpful posts.  You guys described my situation accurately - we had a big advantage (and big fleets).  So while I really like my tried-and-true enormous advantage concept, in this particular game your approach sounds like it would be more fun.  Perhaps I can enjoy the game more by secretly building a massive economy, while keeping my fleet and defenses small and letting the AI still think he's doing well and has a chance.  Hee hee hee hee...

But on the other hand, I'd love to also be able to reduce his entire solar system to rubble.  Darvin mentioned a suggestions board...is there a place where I can simply ask Stardock to add a "no AI surrender" feature to a patch?

Thanks again for your help.

HB

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Darvin mentioned a suggestions board...is there a place where I can simply ask Stardock to add a "no AI surrender" feature to a patch?
End of quote

Whirlwind is a developer, so he's read what you've said and is aware of the issue.  The suggestions forum I was referring to is for the upcoming expansion, Diplomacy.  I had been meaning to write a wish-list for AI changes (including surrender behavior) for a while now, and this thread reminded me to do so.

Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top

Darvin,

OK, I understand.  I would like for there to be a patch, of course, so I'm not obligated to buy Diplomacy just to get the AI's behavior fixed, but I'm glad that both you and Whirlwind have some pull to maybe help things along.  We really enjoy the game, as it has so much to offer (and is different each time with random maps), but allowing us to turn off AI surrender would be the coup de grace.  BTW, we are playing the current game using your small fleet strategy, and it's worked much better.  It's now 2v2, with both bad guys set to normal, and I've kept my military ranked about #2 or 3 - and it has worked well.  Economy is cranking, so I can replace the fleets quickly, so it appears you've given us a good workaround until a better solution can be reached.

Thanks again for all your help.

HB