Capitalizing on racial advantages

from Sins Forums

Reading the forums, I see a lot of discussion about Advent being overpowered and various schemes for balancing the fleet powers.  These posts, however, seem to only offer solutions for adjusting ship powers.  I'm curious if anybody has tried to come up with a scheme for balancing the races by capitalizing on each race's advantages.

For this post, I will use a term called resource-time.  The measurement has dimension in seconds and is meant to reflect the fact that the races do not have the same economy.  Spending 8000 credit equivalents to replace lost ships costs an empire with 500 credit equivalents per second 16 seconds, while it costs 20 seconds to replace those lost ships for an empire with 400 credit equivelents/s.  Holding all else equal, the economy is TEC > Vasari> Advent, but this order may very well change because of placement and battle outcomes.

I'll use the TEC vs. Advent as an example (because I'm not sure what the Vasari's advantage is).  TEC's racial specialty is economy, while Advent's racial specialty is fleet power.  Currently, the economy offers little advantage in the game (except as the middle super eco feeder to allies).  While the TEC can replace ships more easily, what happens in a TEC vs. Advent battle seems to be one of the following:

1.  A decisive battle takes place over the planet with little reinforcements.  Both empires replace their casualties after the battle is over.  What happens while the TEC can afford to replace ships at the same rate as the Advent is that the TEC:Advent resource-time expenditure on replacing lost ships will continuously increases because the TEC is losing planets, which the Advent gains, while the TEC:Advent fleet power remains the same.  Once the TEC can no longer replace ships at the same rate, it's over.

2.  Players continuously build and send in reinforcements, but because the TEC is losing ships much faster, and reinforcements arrive in a trinkle, the Advent eventually overpowers TEC and takes the planet.  While the first planet will cost the Advent more time and resources to take, it feeds the Advent capital ships more for each battle, and the TEC will likely not have a fleet large enough to hold subsequet planets.

However, this doesn't mean it's impossible to balance TEC vs. Advent by using the TEC's economy.  A battle between 20,000 resource time units worth of Advent ships and 28,000 resource-time units worth of TEC ships is going to be much more favorable to the TEC than a battle between 20,000 resource-time units worth of Advent ships and 20,000 resource-time+2000 resource-time/45s worth of TEC ships for 180s.  We can attempt to shift the balance toward TEC by allowing the TEC to field more ships to being with.  This can be done currently by having the TEC go higher on the fleet size, but since fleet size research reduces income, it also lowers the TEC's economic advantage and reduces the ability of the TEC to take advantage of its economy.

One obvious solution would be to give the TEC a higher fleet capacity.  For example, give the TEC +2% fleet capacity for each of the first 8 military labs it owns and +1% fleet capacity for each military lab thereafter.  Does this make TEC vs. Advent balanced, probably not, as I have not tested it, but it changes the modifications to the TEC and Advent ships necessary in order to make the races balanced.  Of course, this is why I ask what the far more experienced players here have devised on this subject.

 

tl:dr version:  TEC may be balanced against Advent by allowing the TEC to field more ships per fleet research to take advantage of the TEC economy, rather than or in addition to changing the balance between the two fleets resource-for-resource or supply-for-supply.  An analogous solution may be found for Vasari vs. TEC and Vasari vs. Advent.

strategy
14,497 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Why has no one recommended this before? Because its too complicated. Adjusting ship values is easy.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

In terms of military technologies, the TEC is focused on armor technologies, the Advent on shields, and the Vasari Phase Missiles. In terms of civilian technologies, the TEC leads in credit economies, the Advent on culture, and the Vasari on resource economies.

However, players with powerful economies will inevitably win wars of attrition, simply being able to more quickly replace losses than a player with a weaker economy. In terms of ship construction, the TEC probably has a distinct advantage with its relatively cheap ships, faster build times (augmented with Industrial Juggernaut), and lower fleet supply costs (the supply 4 Illuminators take up is equivalent to the supply 6 Javelis frigates take).

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

A battle between 20,000 resource time units worth of Advent ships and 28,000 resource-time units worth of TEC ships is going to be much more favorable to the TEC
End of quote

There are two problems with this.  The first is that the TEC economy isn't actually better until the mid-game.  Your economy is pretty much equal to the Advent player (if not worse, due to the advantage of the Progenitor) until you get some of your superior civic techs researched.  Even once you do have those techs researched, you're not 50% better, more like 10 or 20% better.  It's only really late game that TEC takes off and leaves the other factions in their dust econ-wise.

On the other hand, a mature Advent fleet can easily wipe out double its value in TEC units.  With repulse, telekinetic push, energy amplification, shield restore, and lots of illuminators there's little the TEC can do but try to out-spam you with LRM/hoshiko, and that's a losing proposition for him. 

 

Fact of the matter is that in real-world matches, often times it's the TEC player on the front lines with the shitty economy and the Advent player in the pocket earning the big bucks.  It has more to do with where you are than who you are.  Advent is beatable, but it's an uphill battle all the way, and if they reach late game you'd better have the economic upper-hand.

 

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Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting InfiniteVoid, reply 2
However, players with powerful economies will inevitably win wars of attrition, simply being able to more quickly replace losses than a player with a weaker economy. In terms of ship construction, the TEC probably has a distinct advantage with its relatively cheap ships, faster build times (augmented with Industrial Juggernaut), and lower fleet supply costs (the supply 4 Illuminators take up is equivalent to the supply 6 Javelis frigates take).
End of InfiniteVoid's quote

There are two problems here. 

1.  Suppose income(1)/income(2)>1, and income(1)/income(2)<loss(1)/loss(2), then even though empire(1) has a stronger economy, it's actually losing the war of attrition, because its income advantage does not outweight its fleet disadvantage.  This is precisely what happens when TEC and Advent fleets engage.

2.  Economic comparisons between the empires change as each loses/gains planets, as would happen if one of the empires loses a defensive battle.  There is not a battle of attribution because the empire with the superior fleet is continuously pushing on the other empire's territory.

Quoting Darvin3, reply 3

There are two problems with this.  The first is that the TEC economy isn't actually better until the mid-game.  Your economy is pretty much equal to the Advent player (if not worse, due to the advantage of the Progenitor) until you get some of your superior civic techs researched.  Even once you do have those techs researched, you're not 50% better, more like 10 or 20% better.  It's only really late game that TEC takes off and leaves the other factions in their dust econ-wise.
End of Darvin3's quote

The numbers in the OP are illustrative of the concepts, not reflective of the actual comparison between the races.  If you read the example fix provided in the OP, you will see that it will take a TEC empire around 30 military labs to field 40% more ships than an Advent empire.  Picking arbitrary numbers to illustrate the concept is certainly clearer than using a correct formula:

Let k be a large natural number  Let T(1) and T(2) be positive numbers, where T(1)/T(2)=n, a small natural number.  Let p > 1.  It will be far more advantageous to the TEC empire to field k*p credit equivalent of units against k credit equivalents of Advent units initially than if the TEC empire were to field k credit equivalent of units+k*(p-1)/n per T(2) seconds for a T(1) seconds duration battle against an Advent Empire fielding k credit equivalent of units.

Of course, the early game advantage of the Progen is problematic, but then again, the early game Advent doesn't have Malice, a high level Energy Amplification, Repulse, or even a shield bubble in many cases.

Quoting Darvin3, reply 3
On the other hand, a mature Advent fleet can easily wipe out double its value in TEC units.  With repulse, telekinetic push, energy amplification, shield restore, and lots of illuminators there's little the TEC can do but try to out-spam you with LRM/hoshiko, and that's a losing proposition for him.
End of Darvin3's quote

In this scenario, the Advent has a level 6 military tech (Repulse).  That is higher in level than the research that gives TEC its economic advantage.  Suppose that, at this point, the TEC compared to the Advent can afford to field 20% more ships, and it has a 20% higher fleet cap, then the battle becomes 3/5 against TEC rather than 1/2 against TEC.  The necessary adjustments to the ship and ability values to balance the two fleets is not nearly as large as before.  It is another illustration of the effects that playing to racial advantages may have on fleet balance.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Iconus Guardians can be rolled out after three Hostility labs, Repluse after five (not six).

There are also home field advantages to take into account: an attacking fleet meeting an equally sized defending fleet are at a disadvantage if the defenders have tactical structures (namely, repair bays) in close enough proximity to the battlefield or they have one or more frigate factories at the planet replacing ships lost in the battle. This way, the defending ships become more difficult to kill and their reinforcements arrive pretty much immediately, whereas the attackers only have the resources of their ships and any reinforcements are one or more phase jumps away.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Look, you seem to be a math guy, so let me tell you this: it's all about time value of money.  If I have $10 today, it's more valuable than the promise of $10 tomorrow because I can do something with it now.  Investing is all about what rate of return I can procure, and how long till my investment pays for itself.  This is no different in strategy games.  All economic investments in the game (including research) are basically of the form that you pay money now and in exchange there is the promise of profits or savings into the future.  Seeing as rate of return is a poor measurement in strategy games (there's no such thing as a loan, very few investments are repeatable, or if they are they are only repeatable at higher cost, etc) payback time is our best measurement.

The fastest economic return that I'm aware of is colonizing your first asteroid.  This pays for itself in approximately 5 minutes.  Trade ports come in at about 20 minutes to pay for themselves.  Economic technologies vary wildly, with some (like the TEC discount on extractors) potentially paying for themselves practically instantly if you time them right.  The bottom line is that there actually isn't very much low-lying fruit, most of these are expensive technologies or investments that require 20 or even 30 minutes to pay off the investment you made to access them.

On the other hand, military technologies can pay off very quickly (particularly support cruisers) in terms of combat performance.  If you research guardian prototype, you can have four or five in your army in under a minute, increasing your combat potential greatly.  Researching repulse pays off instantly, all your guardians immediately have the ability to use repulse.

So, if we compare an Advent player who pursues military technology with a TEC player who pursues civic technology, it's not a case of more might vs more money.  It's a case of more might vs the potential to earn more money.  If you don't have a military that can stand up to the Advent right now, that potential will never be realized.

 

As an example, let's presume the Advent player does put up two extra labs and research repulse (it's fair to assume the TEC player will have three military labs himself by this point to access Hoshikos; he's kinda screwed if he doesn't).  The net cost comes to about 5000 effective credits (counting crystal/metal as costing 4.5 credits a piece).  This is about the same cost as three trade ports, which at this point in the game will probably produce 1.8 credits per second each.  Let's be generous and presume that's 2 credits per second each.

So Advent has repulse, TEC has 6 credits per second (tempered by upkeep, so probably more like 5.2).  Do the math, this is about one extra LRM every 1.5 minutes.  It will take fifteen minutes to build up a measly 10 LRM advantage on this economic boon (presuming you don't run into upkeep issues and further knock your income).  In the meantime, the Advent has been enjoying a massive advantage in every battle with repulse.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

To put this right: The TEC already have a huge advantage with desert and earth planet upgrades on tier I. I usually prefer to build one civil lab straight away, research Earth 1, then cheaper factories and mines 1 and 2 and Earth 2. By that time I have colonized the roid and may profit from the research at least part-wise. The home-Earth usually takes about the time to begin with Earth 2 to have fully reached the first capactiy expansion. Once i got the roid up, I either choose to colonize a 3-4 volcano and research tier 1 metal 1 and 2. Or i will colonize an ice and upgrade it to lvl 3 pop-development.

with this capital I may easily build up a nice fleet. Of course, if I see an advent player building 3 mil. labs I need to opt between some economic expansion or a good chance of an early gg ^^

___

EEF-Prax

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

The race's advantages are economy (TEC), synergy (Advent), and technology (Phase missles, phase nodes,...)

The problem is no matter how many ships you throw at a properly microed battleball, the ball comes out on top. HCs and Caps get pushed around be repulse and shredded by illums. In a straight fleet battle, a 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, or even a 1:4 number deficit for the advent means NOTHING.

No matter how much you spam, in a straight-up fight, you lose.

The advent are unable, for the most part, to split up their caps though. Attack them on multiple fronts and that one big fleet isn't so formidable.

@OP your basic assumption that economy wins the war is correct, but like darvin said, a fleet NOW is better than a pile of cash LATER.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

The problem is: You can come out with an huge balanced fleet even before the other Players  Trade line creates the first credits. I think the research for new ships should all in all take longer and/or have their costs increased. This could lead to more time consuming games as u have to wait for the powerful ships later on but also would give Lf more actual time in the game :D. On the other hand it would increase the advantage of economy so u actually can do eco even in "shorter" games.

This measures would give the Tec Player the chance to build up his economy before the Holy Trinity and repulse tear him apart.

My opinion is the Vasari's advantage is Phase technology. It could be more present earlier. I am thinking of phasing out on all ships for short period of time(2-5 sec) or an ability that let you skip one gravwell when jumping.(not an level 6 ab on a cap the siege frigates would gain a lot of usability)

 

please excuse my bad English its not my native language.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting with_an_e, reply 4



Quoting InfiniteVoid,
reply 2
However, players with powerful economies will inevitably win wars of attrition, simply being able to more quickly replace losses than a player with a weaker economy. In terms of ship construction, the TEC probably has a distinct advantage with its relatively cheap ships, faster build times (augmented with Industrial Juggernaut), and lower fleet supply costs (the supply 4 Illuminators take up is equivalent to the supply 6 Javelis frigates take).


There are two problems here. 

1.  Suppose income(1)/income(2)>1, and income(1)/income(2)<loss(1)/loss(2), then even though empire(1) has a stronger economy, it's actually losing the war of attrition, because its income advantage does not outweight its fleet disadvantage.  This is precisely what happens when TEC and Advent fleets engage.

2.  Economic comparisons between the empires change as each loses/gains planets, as would happen if one of the empires loses a defensive battle.  There is not a battle of attribution because the empire with the superior fleet is continuously pushing on the other empire's territory.




Quoting Darvin3,
reply 3

There are two problems with this.  The first is that the TEC economy isn't actually better until the mid-game.  Your economy is pretty much equal to the Advent player (if not worse, due to the advantage of the Progenitor) until you get some of your superior civic techs researched.  Even once you do have those techs researched, you're not 50% better, more like 10 or 20% better.  It's only really late game that TEC takes off and leaves the other factions in their dust econ-wise.


The numbers in the OP are illustrative of the concepts, not reflective of the actual comparison between the races.  If you read the example fix provided in the OP, you will see that it will take a TEC empire around 30 military labs to field 40% more ships than an Advent empire.  Picking arbitrary numbers to illustrate the concept is certainly clearer than using a correct formula:

Let k be a large natural number  Let T(1) and T(2) be positive numbers, where T(1)/T(2)=n, a small natural number.  Let p > 1.  It will be far more advantageous to the TEC empire to field k*p credit equivalent of units against k credit equivalents of Advent units initially than if the TEC empire were to field k credit equivalent of units+k*(p-1)/n per T(2) seconds for a T(1) seconds duration battle against an Advent Empire fielding k credit equivalent of units.

Of course, the early game advantage of the Progen is problematic, but then again, the early game Advent doesn't have Malice, a high level Energy Amplification, Repulse, or even a shield bubble in many cases.




Quoting Darvin3,
reply 3
On the other hand, a mature Advent fleet can easily wipe out double its value in TEC units.  With repulse, telekinetic push, energy amplification, shield restore, and lots of illuminators there's little the TEC can do but try to out-spam you with LRM/hoshiko, and that's a losing proposition for him.


In this scenario, the Advent has a level 6 military tech (Repulse).  That is higher in level than the research that gives TEC its economic advantage.  Suppose that, at this point, the TEC compared to the Advent can afford to field 20% more ships, and it has a 20% higher fleet cap, then the battle becomes 3/5 against TEC rather than 1/2 against TEC.  The necessary adjustments to the ship and ability values to balance the two fleets is not nearly as large as before.  It is another illustration of the effects that playing to racial advantages may have on fleet balance.
End of with_an_e's quote

 

   You sir take the nerd of the year award, wow what a great example of nerdism if I EVER seen one . WOW

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Erictred1, reply 10

   You sir take the nerd of the year award, wow what a great example of nerdism if I EVER seen one . WOW
End of Erictred1's quote

Well, I'm pretty sure almost everyone who posts on the strategy forum is either new and trying to figure out the basics or is a nerd who knows almost all there is to Sins games mechanics. I'd rather be in the latter.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Honestly, I think the fleet supply used per ship needs to be looked at and rebalanced. I think that it would solve quite a few problems (especially for the TEC and Vasari). However, at the time of this writing there is a massive patch due next week that's rebalancing quite a bit - let's see how it goes!

-Itharus