Scouting and Ruins

I'm almost certain that they would.  But even in Master of Magic, the information still wasn't explicit as I would have liked it to be.  It could say "A Guardian Spirit was spotted in the ruins" and upon entering, it could either be one Guardian Spirit OR 1 Guardian Spirit and 8 squads of teleporting, death-dealing Unicorns whom would promptly teleport into your ranks and murder every last one of your casters before you had time to retreat.  In Elemental, I'd like to see the ability to do recon before entering and gain an exact understanding (with some risk, of course) of what I'm up against.

I understand where you guys are coming from but I disagree. I think part of the fun of exploring ruins/dungeons/towers is not knowing what to expect. I think it's pretty cheap to get a bestiary report just by going up to a location. If you want to scout something out...then do it the ol' fashioned way and go explore and get the heck out of there if it's too dangerous.

Now, this is based on the assumption that the locations mentioned above are explorable.

CapnWinky, you shouldn't have to send an army to scout. Sending a specialized recon unit or a squad of grunts (hoping one of them will make it back) should be an option too. 

I never mentioned an army. Any of your customized units should have to explore any dungeon or what have you just like in real life. If I go explore a cave...I'm not going to find a piece of paper in the entrance telling me what's in there. Now, as I said, that's only for explorable areas. If vanilla Elemental is not going to have explorable areas (which might make it into an expansion) , I think dungeons should be treated more like FFH2 where you dont know what you're going to encounter. Just my 2 cents though..

Playing the Alpha build at PAX there was a pre-encounter screen that asked how you wanted to handle the encounter. Given this was random world wandering monsters and not the static quest/dungeon encounters. What happened was if I encounter a random monster it told me what it was (I.E. Giant Spiders!) and if I want to Flee, Parley, or Fight.

So if they don't have at least that much for dungeons/quests when they have it for wandering monsters I'll be surprised.

"forum hiccup"

I think that the information you have before entering a dungeon should depend on a scouting ability of a hero or unit in the army, so, depending on this ability, you can get more or less info about the dungeon (not only enemies, but also resources/treasures available) or even get your scouting unit killed in the process.

There can be even rogue units specialized in entering dungeons and kill enemy units or get resources/treasures in the dungeon based on the information obtained by the scouting units

Exploring dungeons can be a fun subsistem of the game if managed properly.

"forum hiccup"

Hm, not sure who you are disagreeing with I was saying that you should "have the ability" to discern what is found within a dungeon--- otherwise your sovereign or heroes will get promtly stomped without warning half the time you set foot into a dungeon.  While "finding a piece of paper" with dungeon specifics on it is improbably, having to send your whole army into a dungeon to explore is equally as improbable. 

Now, means of reconning dungeons ahead of time could include rogue units, ranger units, or scrying spells and they could all be ways that you could figure out what it is you would be confronting and, should these means be powerful enough, your perception of what is there can become very explicit. 

I think you should def get a pre-encounter screen for any creatures much larger than a human anyway.

If dugeons ARE exploreable then hopefully they will not allow us to contol the unit scouting (unless your channeler scouts).

1) Scouting takes time so your army is waiting around for the scout to hopefully get back and report

2) The scout could die or get lost and thus never return (or take really long)

3) If the scout is really mad at the soverign for some reason he could lie (after seeing a dragon - "no sir, no dragons just a buncy of little bunnies)

Of course magics and such would be available for scrying and such (e.g., floating eye-balls) to make this less dangerous but defense mechanisms for mid-range or higher dungeons could setup shielded areas.  While you wouldn't know exactly what is in the dungeon then you'd know it was more that just a pack of wolves.

Maybe there can be a spy or scout unit that has the 'spy' ability. After successful spy mission, you will be able to get exact details on the creatures in the dungeon.

He! he! And while i am on issue of spies, you can even use the spy to murder them in their sleep or sabotage their equipment. Heck! Maybe you can even bribe some units in the group so that the turn on the enemy in the middle of battle (like RTK) Bwa ha ha!

I agree, there should be a unit such as a "ranger" who would have the ability to identify what's probably living in the ruins.  A regular guard who's only been trained in spears wouldn't know a group of harpies is probably living inside the ruins, however a ranger could identify the claw marks and perhaps waste droppings as those of harpies.

A special unit (such as a ranger) for identifying the creatures inside ruins would also bring more of the D&D aspect the developers have been aiming to acquire.

Rather than having to explicitly explore dungeons, or even having to send troops in to auto-explore and come back (or not come back) with information on what might be down there, I'd prefer if the amount of information given to you when you approach a dungeon be tied to the scouting ability of your hero or army.

Alternatively, if they're actually explorable, then this might be a moot point depending on how combat engagement happens and whether or not unaligned monsters/armies in dungeons move. If you enter the dungeon and notice a big scary monster in the distance, you can always just turn tail and leave. 

If these scout units come with red shirts...

This is a good approach. I like the idea of having a hero/unit devoted to scouting and not combat, with abilitties for getting info about a dungeon like the kind of enemies in it, or even the treasures or resources you can get exploring it. But not only getting info about the dungeon, but also being able to get the treasures without having to combat for them, using a hero with scouting+stealth abbilities, or something like that. What I want to explain is that having armies and combat is fun, but solving situations without combat, and using other kind of abbilities (and developing heroes in that way) could be fun too.

I just hope there's going to be a lot of "wild" space in the game, because clearing out a monster lair and then having a safe zone is no fun. I want new lairs to pop up in far off places and roaming gangs of minotaurs knocking at my gates, I want that forest to be offlimits because the giant spiders are scary as all hell and maybe end up just torching it because I don't feel like losing a hero and an army clearing them out.

/qft

I love exploration in a strategy game.  This was definitely a strong point of MoM.

NO HALF/N/HALFS!  NONONO! 

If we're going with unit design (which appears to be the case) don't 'tack on' special units like that!  Make it an extra 'feature' that you have to train for, sure, but don't just tack on 'specific' units to the custom ones!  That's one thing that GalCiv II did right:  If I want to create a colony ship with the firepower of a dreadnaught... I can.  It's just stupid.

Sure it can be an extra 'feature' acquired from training, but it depends on how close to the D&D aspect the developers wish to achieve.  Within D&D most skills are only available to some... and a few skills only available to one type. 

If all skills can be given to any unit or hero then it could open the door for potential exploit issues...  such as guess which one of my 15 guards each on a different square has the ability which is destroying the land.  It seems important we should be able to view an enemy unit/hero and determine if its a water mage or fire mage or warrior or archer or etc,  etc, .

Would a specific ability to scout really be useful? I mean, once all the dungeons are cleared, they sorta become deadweight and useless. Unless there are randomly generated dungeons periodically.

Well,scouting dont have to be limited to dungeons,it could give hero better sight radius,so he can explore map quicker and see enemys coming from great distance,also he can obtain much better informations about incoming army then the hero without scouting(like exact number,stats and abilities of soldiers and heroes in approaching army and all that could depend on the level of the skill,bigger level,better infos).Maybe even some bonus for units that have any king of missile weapons and scouting,since scouting would mean unit or hero have sharp eyes and can see far in the distance...

Also, I'd prefer if most dungeons would regenerate eventually once they're cleared. And they needn't be populated by exactly what was there before, either. Sometimes a dungeon might slowly become repopulated over time, and maybe sometimes a powerful creature will move in overnight. This would keep the world alive longer. For example in Civ IV, I often start a new game when the whole world is covered by civilizations - it's just not as much fun anymore when there's nothing to explore and nothing to interact with besides other players.

Having significant wildspace, regenerating dungeons, creature spawns, and meaningful NPC characters/societies/civilizations would basically make the 'exploration' phase of the game everlasting. For me, exploration isn't just discovering the whole map - it's finding things. Coming across a dungeon, for example (so regenerating dungeons means there's always something for you to find) or something new that wasn't there before. A powerful creature or being coming out of hiding/slumber and suddenly interacting with the world, a wandering adventurer stirring up trouble and causing some chain of events - things that make the world feel alive are what I love in these games. When the world itself plays a part in the story, and isn't just the backdrop for a conflict between a bunch of nations/civilizations that are more or less on the same level as each other.

I like your idea of regenerating dungeons but I think there needs to be contingencies, otherwise you might end up with a situation where a player will "farm" dungeons, which damages the atmosphere that dungeons are meant to create in the first place.  I think that, for instance, dungeons that are near civilized areas should very infrequently replenish, if at all.  Dungeons in distant wildlands, though, should replenish on a regular basis and even follow a sort of "succession" in which stronger individuals succeed weaker ones.  I also think that any cities, outposts, or mines destroyed and left derelict too long should also become dungeons, the strength of the dungeon being contingent on the size of the ruins (or the terrible way in which is was decimated.  Undead minions after a terrible slaughter?) 

To remedy the entire world being enveloped by channeler empires super quick, you could have certain vast wildlands (filled with a multitude of dungeons) that are presided over by immensely powerful creatures.  While you could sneak a party of adventurers past their broad gaze, you would be unable to march large armies through their lands or build a city in their domain without it swooping down/ stomping over to crush the intruders.  Perhaps in the far, far late game, a player may finally be able to march an army against the beast to slay it, and turn the said wildland toward a civilized state. 

No ruins or dungeons should ever reach the state of being permanently cleared by natural means.  The monsters, undead, insects and other evil beasts actually seek dark, damp and unholy places... much the same way humans seek farmlands and rivers.  

It should be possible for a channeller to cast spells which helps prevent these dungeons/ruins from being repopulated such as a powerful holy spell; a gate locking spell; an earthquake spell; etc., etc., .

I completely agree.

Hopefully a formula will be used to determine when a dungeon is repopulated. 

These variables should include:

Any nearby civilized areas which decrease the rate of repopulation

Any locking or holy spells which decrease the rate of repopulation

The actual depth of the dungeon which increases the rate of repopulation

The actual degree of evil and unholiness which exists at this location which increases the rate of repopulation (A dungeon with a long history of horrific evil will be difficult to control... even to the point where it's not safe to have civilized cities/structures nearby.)