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You Can "Know"

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You Can "Know"

With Full Assurance

from JoeUser Forums

"Freedom comes from knowing the truth.  Bondage results from missing it."

I read those words recently from a well known Pastor.  I thought, "Ain't that the truth?" 

Someone here on JU asked me recently how I can "know" that I'm going to heaven since he believes we really can't know for sure.  I refuted that, because I do absolutely know for sure I'm going to heaven.  I have been set free from that doubt of not knowing. 

There are some religious groups out there that teach you can't be sure.  One teaches the best time to die is when you're walking out of a confession booth.  That would be the only time you can be sure of your salvation.  How sad.

I say nonsense.  All a bunch of nonsense. It's a man-made teaching. They are teaching fear and guilt to keep you in line.  That's all that is. Some call it brainwashing.  I agree.   If I must do or not do something to keep from losing my salvation, then salvation would have to be by faith and works.  Keeps me coming!! 

It's the works part, these religious organizations are most after.  If they can convince you of this, you will continue to work and work and work for the church to ensure that your ticket to the hereafter is secure. 

Nonesense.   I believe this type of teaching is exactly why so many are dissatisfied with organized religion.  I don't blame them one bit.  Someday, the leaders in these churches will have alot to answer for.  With much responsibility comes much accountability. 

So what is at stake?  Many things.  Peace, assurance, joy, love for instance.  They all are related.  If you don't have assurance of God's acceptance you can't have peace and without peace you can have no joy.  A person with no peace is really motivated by fear.  Fear and love don't match up well. 

John said this:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life."  1 John 5:13

Think about it.   If Christ came to seek and save the lost wouldn't it have been wise on God's part to snatch us to heaven right then, the moment we are saved in order to insure we make it?  Otherwise God is taking a great risk  forcing us to stay here and walk thru a very sinful world.  Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that "bad company corrupts good character."  We all know there's plenty of bad characters around us every day. 

Another thing to think about.  If we don't have this assurance, peace, and joy because it's replaced by fear in losing our salvation doesn't that spill over to worry?  Didn't Jesus tell us worrying is a sin?  Didn't Paul tell us to be anxious over nothing?  How can we reconcile these things if God is holding our ticket to heaven over our heads in the hopes we are good little boys and girls.  If we mess up.....oh well.  Ticket rescinded.

No, the only way we can have the peace and joy and assurance is to believe Christ when he said those that come to him can have eternal life.  When we come to him, he says, we can have life more abundantly.  This is not the same type of life the world offers.  But if we tell others that we can't be sure of our eternal security then it's no diff than what the world offers.  Who wants that?   The world offers, fear, worry, anxiety and hate.  Who needs that? 

Salvation has to be by faith alone.  Once good works are introduced into the salvation process then it gets all chaotic and complicated.  It is no longer by faith alone but by faith and works and to say that is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves.  Then you have to ask, why did Jesus come to die?  Didn't he take this burden from off our shoulders?  Didn't he carry it instead?   If we believe our salvation is determined by our works, it pretty much contradicts just about every doctrine in scripture spoken by Christ and written down by the Apostles. 

Think about this.  If our salvation is not secure how could Jesus say "they will never perish?"  (John 10:28) If we receive eternal life but then forfeited it thru sin, either by not doing what we should do or doing what we shouldn't do, will we not perish?   By doing so, don't we make Jesus words to be a lie, null and void?   Didn't he die for our sins, past, present and future?  I believe he did. 

I guess it really comes down to trust and commitment.  Jesus is calling us to do more than just believe in his existence.  He's calling us to put our trust in him, in his words and in his death in exchange for our sins.  That's it.  Even a child can understand this. 

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."  Romans 5:1

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is recokoned as righteousness."  Romans 4:5.

 

 

 

religion
87,324 views 818 replies
Reply #251 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 249
That's also why I kept pointing out St. James 2 teaching, but it has fallen on deaf ears I guess.
End of lulapilgrim's quote

That's funny, that's exactly what I thought after reading your reply to my last post.

Not to sound rude, but I would appreciate it if you would at least read what I write before commenting on it.  You completely missed the point.

Reply #252 from JoeUser Forums Top

lula posts:

You and I and all the rest of mankind have been redeemed, but not saved (justified)...as that's an ongoing process that ends when we die.We pass from the sentence of death by orignal sin to new spritual life when we are baptized, something that can never be undone.

Justification is not a one time act of God. It begins at our Baptism when we are infused with sanctifying grace, which eliminates original sin and makes us heirs to Heaven. So our justification or salvation begins at a certain time and continues throughout our life with God continually giving His grace (to us Catholics by the 7 Sacraments). A person gains grace as he lives out his Christian life in obedience to God and His commands. As grace increases, justification increases and the person becomes more righteous in the eyes of God.

If the person commits grevious sin and remains that way unrepentent, then God removes His grace from the person's soul, and justification ceases.This is what St. Paul meant when he said some will be "cut off".
End of quote

 

Infidel posts:

Can you please give the entire verse, or tell me which post it's in?

End of quote

lula posts:

Let's get the teaching in full context...

St.Paul's teachings are clear that he believes the individual person is not immune from falling away from the faith. In Romans 6:12-13, he addresses baptized Christians saying, "therefore, brothers, we have an obligation---but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

The dying here is the same as that in Romans 6:23, "for the wages of sin is death". Then comes Romans 11:22 when St.Paul wrote to the Gentile Christians..."Consider, therefore, the kindness and sterness of God:sterness to those who fell; but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN IN HIS KINDNESS. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

My emphasis showing the provisionary clause.
End of quote

kfc posts:

Your cut off interpretation is not biblical either. Infidel, take notice.
End of quote

You can't just go from Romas 6 and make a connection with chapter 11.
End of quote

Who made up that rule? If it were you who had done that you'd claim that "Scripture interprets Scripture" (which has me grinning from ear to ear!). of course, St. Paul's teachings in ch. 6 can be pulled forward to ch. 11. that's what makes their impact so great. And besides, the Scriptural passages which teach that our salvation is not certain until our last breath is demonstrated throughout the NT and shows the reader this consistent and overwhelming message.

Sin is sin whether it's the Jews or the Gentiles or we Christians today.

You don't appreciate the depth of the verse that says "the wages of sin is death" and tying that in with all the rest of Scripture...it even goes right to the end with the Book of the Apocalypse...21:26, "There shall not enter into it (heaven) anything defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie..."

Just like evil works (sin), being "cut off" by God is spiritual death KFC. Put that with St.John 15:6, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into fire and burned."

Siege of Centauri
Reply #253 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 246
And verse 14 finishes with the question ..."Shall faith be able to save him?"
End of lulapilgrim's quote

I notice that your translation conveniently leaves out the word "such" before the word "faith" in said verse.  It is amazing how much a single word can alter the meaning of a sentence.

I imagine this comes from the Douay Rheims translation?

Reply #254 from JoeUser Forums Top

Works come AFTER salvation.
End of quote

KFC,

 

Ay..yi...yi!

Salvation is not here on earth...salvation is after we've died, been judged and entered the heavenly gates....

How can works come after that?

You have the timing and order of things mixed up. 

We don't work FOR salvation.
End of quote

I agree and never said we do.

THAT'S YOUR ANSWER???
End of quote

For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9.
End of quote

"not of works, lest any man should boast", by 'works" here St.Paul understands anything whatever that man performs of himself alone, independently of the grace of God. Here, boasting of one's self is to be excluded at all costs. Anything and Everything that we do should be in the name of the Lord for His glory.

 

Now, with this and 249, I've responded in depth to Eph. 2:8-9. But now read the next verse 10 and see that it says, "for we are God's work, created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God has prepared beforehand in order that we may walk therein."

It's pretty obvious Lula and I can give you hundreds more btw...but it's pretty obvious that works have NOTHING to do with our salvation,
End of quote

So, Yes, good works which are obedience to God and all His commands (all done for His glory) are necessary for attaining eternal salvation. Bad or evil works which are sin which remains on our soul unrepentant will send us to Hell.

The burden to be obedient to God and all His commands is upon us and god gives us the necessary graces to perform them well, if we accept His gift.

Scripture is clear that everything about salvation is a gift, including the mental capacity of divine faith and the power to do good works that please God...Phil. 2: 12-13, Eph. 2: 8-9.

Where is that "component" here then?
End of quote

This is how good works are indeed a component of salvation. From Eph. 2:8-10, we can only conclude that both faith and good works are necessary for justification...put that together with St. Jame's 2:24, "Do you see that by works a man is justified: and not by faith alone?"

And we see that without any contradiction whatsoever, both faith and good works must be involved with attaining salvation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #255 from JoeUser Forums Top

lulapilgrim
comment 249
That's also why I kept pointing out St. James 2 teaching, but it has fallen on deaf ears I guess.


IQOFSPAM POSTS:
That's funny, that's exactly what I thought after reading your reply to my last post.

Not to sound rude, but I would appreciate it if you would at least read what I write before commenting on it. You completely missed the point.

End of quote

 

I was referring to your post # 238.... which I responded to in depth in my post 246.

 

Reply #256 from JoeUser Forums Top

You completely missed the point.
End of quote

How so?

 

 

Reply #257 from JoeUser Forums Top

lulapilgrim
comment 246
And verse 14 finishes with the question ..."Shall faith be able to save him?"

I notice that your translation conveniently leaves out the word "such" before the word "faith" in said verse. It is amazing how much a single word can alter the meaning of a sentence.

I imagine this comes from the Douay Rheims translation?
End of quote

Yes, it does.The entire verse reads, "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?"

I checked the King James version and it has verse 14 as "What doth it profit, my brethren though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Which translation do you find the word "such" added before the word "faith" and how does that altar the meaning of the question?

 

Reply #258 from JoeUser Forums Top

From our POV that's how it does look.
End of quote

It's the only one we have.

Reply #259 from JoeUser Forums Top

Yes, it does.The entire verse reads, "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?"
End of quote

Here we are yet again...back to James. 

what you are TOTALLY disregarding Lula is that James is talking about a "said" faith.  You're totally skipping that.  He's not speaking of genuine faith here, but one who claims to have faith. 

He says:  "What shall it profit my bretheren, if a man SAYS he has faith, but has not works?" 

This has nothing to do with salvation is by works.  He's pointing out that your faith can't just be a said faith.  It has to be backed up with works.  Remember Christ when he said "many say to me in that day Lord Lord"  but yet he doesn't know them?  Jesus was talking about the same thing as James.  Many have a said faith but their works (or lack thereof) are evidence against them. 

That's it.  Nothing to do with salvation is of works.  It goes back to what I keep telling you (on deaf ears) that our works are EVIDENCE of our faith.   That's why this verse doesn't match up with those I've been giving you when you look at it the way you are seeing them.  It seems to contradict.   It has to the way you're looking at them.  You are looking at James thru RCC colored glasses. 

oh and btw the NIV does say "such a faith." 

It's the only one we have.
End of quote

no, it's not. 

 

Reply #260 from JoeUser Forums Top

Salvation is not here on earth...salvation is after we've died, been judged and entered the heavenly gates....

How can works come after that?

You have the timing and order of things mixed up.
End of quote

no, Salvation starts today with each believer coming into the faith.  "Now is the day of salvation."  2 Cor 6:2

How many times have you quoted to me to "work out my salvation?"  How can I do that if it's not here and now?  You may want to get a concordance and look up the word Salvation.  It starts now.  Jesus is our salvation.  If you've got Jesus, you've got salvation.  Here's a few just because I like you so much:  :)

"Salvation of God is sent to Gentiles"  Acts 28:28

"Salvation is come to this house."  Luke 19:9

"God has chosen you to salvation."  2 Thess 2:13

"Mine eyes have seen your salvation"  Luke 2:30

 

 

 

Reply #261 from JoeUser Forums Top

This is how good works are indeed a component of salvation. From Eph. 2:8-10, we can only conclude that both faith and good works are necessary for justification...put that together with St. Jame's 2:24, "Do you see that by works a man is justified: and not by faith alone?"

And we see that without any contradiction whatsoever, both faith and good works must be involved with attaining salvation.

End of quote

No, it doesn't say that.  You're making it say that.  It's quite clear.  WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS. It's as clear and bright as the sun.  The RCC is telling you that you have to work your way into heaven so you're buying it hook, line and sinker.  The scripture is quite clear "NOT BY WORKS THAT YOU HAVE DONE."  How much clearer can you get? 

You have yet to show anyone here where it says we are saved by works.  James is not saying that.  He's showing the relationship between faith and works.  Yes.  But he's not saying we are saved by works.  If he did, he contradicts all of scripture. 

Please show me, in what I underlined above from your statement. how that is true.  How can you conclude from Eph 2:8-10 that both faith and works are NECESSARY for salvation? 

 

 

Reply #262 from JoeUser Forums Top

But now read the next verse 10 and see that it says, "for we are God's work, created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God has prepared beforehand in order that we may walk therein."
End of quote

Yes, exactly.  Which came first? 

Notice the order. 

Reply #263 from Stardock Forums Top

no, it's not.
End of quote

Can you see through God's eyes?

Reply #264 from JoeUser Forums Top

Can you see through God's eyes?
End of quote

not everything, but only what he has revealed to us. 

 

Reply #265 from Stardock Forums Top

not everything, but only what he has revealed to us.
End of quote

He's revealed different things to different people. More and more things are being revealed. That's what science does. It solves the mystery of the myth.

Reply #266 from JoeUser Forums Top

He's revealed different things to different people. More and more things are being revealed. That's what science does. It solves the mystery of the myth.
End of quote

God's revealed word is his revelation to mankind. I agree that he reveals diff things to diff people and more and more things are being revealed (so we agree on something)  but yet he doesn't contradict himself by saying one thing to one person and totally different to somebody else.  

 Every generation receives a bit more light as we get closer and closer to the end.  So if you're just relying on Science, as your god,your endall, be careful.  It's like drinking from a broken waterpot sitting in your backyard collecting rainwater instead of drinking from a spring of fresh living water. 

Science can't and will never be able to disprove God.   Neither does God's revealed word attempt to disprove Science.  Both work quite well together. 

It's when we get into "opinions" instead of fact that we run into trouble. 

 

Reply #267 from Stardock Forums Top

Science can't and will never be able to disprove God.
End of quote

I'm not sure "disprove" is the goal. Eventually, we can do everything he can do. We can now create life. (Cloning) Or was that your point?

Reply #268 from JoeUser Forums Top

Yes, it does.The entire verse reads, "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?"

Here we are yet again...back to James.

what you are TOTALLY disregarding Lula is that James is talking about a "said" faith. You're totally skipping that. He's not speaking of genuine faith here, but one who claims to have faith.

He says: "What shall it profit my bretheren, if a man SAYS he has faith, but has not works?"

This has nothing to do with salvation is by works. He's pointing out that your faith can't just be a said faith. It has to be backed up with works. Remember Christ when he said "many say to me in that day Lord Lord" but yet he doesn't know them? Jesus was talking about the same thing as James. Many have a said faith but their works (or lack thereof) are evidence against them.

That's it. Nothing to do with salvation is of works. It goes back to what I keep telling you (on deaf ears) that our works are EVIDENCE of our faith. That's why this verse doesn't match up with those I've been giving you when you look at it the way you are seeing them. It seems to contradict. It has to the way you're looking at them. You are looking at James thru RCC colored glasses.
End of quote

Protestants have devised many and varied explanations to try to neutralize the clear and unambiguoous statement in St.James 2:24, that "man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This passage is a thorn in the side of those who obstinately adhere to Luther's idea of "justification by faith alone".

We've heard it parsed as "said" faith, "such" faith, "saving faith". St.James is not so much attempting to qualify the faith needed for justification as he is saying one must consciously add good works to faith in order to be justified. A person, to be justified must persevere to his last breath in this conscious decision to add good works to faith.

Verses 2-15....St.James is maintaining that if one is to be saved, having faith alone in God is not enough. Faith puts one on the road to salvation. But one must also consciously to join good works with faith which means he's willing to do all that God requires for righteousness. It's that simple.

It's easy to have faith in God's existence and to believe that He may want us to do a few things to acknowledge Him, but doing good works of love for Him for His sake and for others is difficult. That's why St.James adds the truth that even the demons believe.

It goes back to what I keep telling you (on deaf ears) that our works are EVIDENCE of our faith.
End of quote

Could be or could not be. The distinction between the Protestant concept of works that inevitably evidence of faith and the concept St.James is teaching in which a person must make a conscious decision to help another in need (good works in the commandment of love (charity), is important to stress.

It's not a mechanical process as if once a button of faith is pushed good works will begin. The fact is as the individual confronts the decsion to sin or not to sin each day of his life, so too he also confronts the decision to be obedient and do good works and the two are interrelated. Merely having saving faith doesn't necessarily mean one will refrain from sin or one will automatically decide to do good works.

KFC WRITES: 

Salvation has to be by faith alone. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process then it gets all chaotic and complicated.
End of quote

Can you at least begin to see that St. James whom you know is the inspired Word of God soundly refutes your statement?

 

 

 

Reply #269 from JoeUser Forums Top

 

He's revealed different things to different people. More and more things are being revealed.
End of quote

God's revealed word is his revelation to mankind. I agree that he reveals diff things to diff people and more and more things are being revealed (so we agree on something)
End of quote

Count me in agreement as well.

but yet he doesn't contradict himself by saying one thing to one person and totally different to somebody else.
End of quote

I can't think of a time or instance when God has done this.

 

 

Reply #270 from JoeUser Forums Top

Can you at least begin to see that St. James whom you know is the inspired Word of God soundly refutes your statement?
End of quote

no.  I'm not saying works themselves are chaotic and confusing.  I'm saying that if you believe we're saved by them it does get confusing.  Meaning...how many works?  What effort level?  What is considered good enough?  How many times do we have to do them?  How do we know we've done enough?  Have I done more good deeds than bad ones?  Are my works better than Lula's? 

See what I mean? 

James is making the distinction between a "professing" faith and a "possessing" faith.  We're either "professors" or "possessors."  Our works is what justifies us before men. Our faith justifies us before God.   Our works are the only outside evidence others can see.  They can't see the heart.   

James used two examples if you notice...Abraham and Rahab.  Both proved their faith by their works.  They weren't saved by their works.  They were proved by them.  Big diff. 

 

Reply #271 from JoeUser Forums Top

Protestants have devised many and varied explanations to try to neutralize the clear and unambiguoous statement in St.James 2:24, that "man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This passage is a thorn in the side of those who obstinately adhere to Luther's idea of "justification by faith alone".
End of quote

no, it's not Lula.  Again, you keep going back to James.  I could say the same about you when I use those other scriptures that you seem to handle with kid gloves.  You keep running away and going back to James thinking he's proving your point when he's not. 

I told you right from the get go, you have to take ALL the scriptures and reconcile them.  Put them together.  You're being evasive about Eph 2:8-9 along with the others I put up and instead run back to James.  If James was saying what you're believing then he did contradict Paul.   

It's not uncommon for a religion to take a verse, ignoring the rest, to try and prove a point to back up their belief system.  That's what you've been taught by the RCC in this instance.  They're teaching you that works are necessary when in fact, it's necessary for them to keep their church going. 

 

Reply #272 from JoeUser Forums Top

I'm saying that if you believe we're saved by them it does get confusing. Meaning...how many works? What effort level? What is considered good enough? How many times do we have to do them? How do we know we've done enough? Have I done more good deeds than bad ones? Are my works better than Lula's?
End of quote

Which is the same as asking: how does anyone know how strong their faith has to be beforehand, and KFC answered, "I'm not sure we can know."

Reply #273 from JoeUser Forums Top

Science can't and will never be able to disprove God.
End of quote

 

This is weird, but the more I study philosophy and people like Soren Kierkegaard the more I would have to agree with the idea that God can neither be proven or disproven. The largest reason behind it, is faith. How can you prove something that someone claims is beyond our perception/realm, and has faith in it. (Other things set aside) You can try, sure, and I would support someone in looking for answers, because I strongly feel that you have to question things or else become static and ignorant.

Also, KFC, what is your take on the fact that different people have claimed they've been revealed things by God, but those revelations sometimes contradict the others.

Reply #274 from JoeUser Forums Top

Also, KFC, what is your take on the fact that different people have claimed they've been revealed things by God, but those revelations sometimes contradict the others.
End of quote

I don't know how I can really answer this question Lucas.  Not enough information.  I can only tell you that anyone who claims anything doesn't mean it's necessarily from God.  Anyone can make a claim.  If someone made a claim to me the first thing I would do is measure it against the word of God.  God isn't going to tell anyone something that contradicts his revealed word to us.   So do you have something more specific in mind you can share? 

For instance, if somebody "claimed" the world was going to end on Dec 14, 2012.  I would laugh.  The bible is clear.  Nobody knows the day or the hour.  Now, if somebody told me that, by looking at the countries and how they're lined up, and with the AC already in view or here, that the end was going to be in the next coming months. .. I could buy that because I know once the AC shows up the coming will be shortly after that by reading Matthew 24 and other passages put together. 

The bible was written by 40 completely diff men over a period of 1500 years.  No contradictions between them.  Everytime there seemed to be a contradiction over the years, it turned out to be a result of our own understanding, not the writers' understanding. 

How can you prove something that someone claims is beyond our perception/realm, and has faith in it.
End of quote

That's why Christ came.  He came to prove that he was from God.  He met all the criteria that was set down in the OT and then some.  His birthright was not questioned, his miracles were unmatched, his teachings were superb, his authority was felt and recognized, and his resurrection sealed the deal especially to one doubter in the end.   So the starting point could be right there.  Even non-Christians wrote about this man and his claims. 

how does anyone know how strong their faith has to be beforehand, and KFC answered, "I'm not sure we can know."
End of quote

That's not the question I answered. 

Reply #275 from JoeUser Forums Top

That's why Christ came. He came to prove that he was from God. He met all the criteria that was set down in the OT and then some. His birthright was not questioned, his miracles were unmatched, his teachings were superb, his authority was felt and recognized, and his resurrection sealed the deal especially to one doubter in the end. So the starting point could be right there. Even non-Christians wrote about this man and his claims.
End of quote

 

That only proves (?) a man made claims; what is to say that Jesus wasn't merely crazy? Or anything else for that matter. In the end you rely on your faith primariliy with critical thought as well.