Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

Capital Ship Carriers and the truth about strikecraft.

Capital Ship Carriers and the truth about strikecraft.

Tweaking the functionality of the Carrier Caps... plus something else..

Throughout the history of this games' versions, Capital Ship carriers have been a bit lackluster and
underappreciated by players and the developers. Their weakness(hp/shield/armor/dps) comparative to other Capital
ship types and their poor, situational abilities, and lack of scaling leave them sparse on the battlefield,
relatively unused, and much less of a threat than their equally priced relatives. Simple fact is, that they simply
do not have the power or lifespan to make as significant an impact on battles as say a colony cap. Plus the recent
nerf on strikecraft build rate saps what little power they had to near none. Carrying the hard counter to lrms,
these ships should be an lrm spammers worst nightmare right?

That being said the solution is: a bit more armor, some extra squadrons and a slight change to certain
abilities.(and the build penalty reduced)

Nothing I'm proposing is a huge overhaul of the carrier as some have suggested, but rather small things that can
make them more useful (and threatening) on the battle field. Here's what I suggest.

ARMOR-
Amongst capital ships, the Carrier class has the second worst (on average, and to colonizer caps). This would be
fine if it's abilites were worth more on the battlefield. Carriers real strength( their strikecraft) is diminished
by the fact that SC need time to kill things and the Carrier cap struggles to stay alive long enough for the
strikecraft to be effective. A slight increase in initial armor coupled with a few additonal things will help them
stay alive long enough for their squadrons to be a threat. If people feel that this would throw the balance of this
ships, perhaps a slight decrease in movement speed can counteract this without negating it.

ABILITIES-
Carrier most will agree that collectively, carrier caps have the least functional abilities in the game, but some
tweaks could very easily make them more potent without being overpowered.

Adept Drone Anima and Heavy Fighters: People have suggested making these AOE. The problem arises of carriers spams becoming devastatingly more powerful. With a different squadron capacity for the Sova (outlined below), the heavy fighter ability gets more powerful and can be put to better use. For Drone Anima, I propose a change to the the
extra fighters it gives to this [ 1/2/3 ---> 1/3/5]. At level 10 a Halcyon would have 11 squads(see below), each
with 5 extra SC. Doesn't seem so bad then does it? (keep in mind that the Halcyon still has to build these extra
strikecraft, which takes time)

Scramble Bombers: Arguably the worst ability in the game, this ability instantly creates 3 bombers for 2 minutes.
With its cool down time down to 40 seconds, you are only able to launch a maximum of 3 additional squads at its
highest level at a time. As fighters can destroy these additional bombers before the abilities cooldown time even
expires, its not likely you'll ever get those 3 additional squads all out at the same time. To rework this weak
ability, I propose an increasing amount of squadrons [2 squads, 4 squads, 6 squads] for this to function properly
you'd have to change the AM cost and cool down times to increase, and possibly decrease the time they're active as
well to balance. This way bombers could quickly be dispatched to deliver a potentially deadly blow to a fleeing Cap
ship. 6 bomber squads doesn't seem like that much, but its enough to have an impact.

SQUADRON CAPACITY-

At Lvl1 Carrier caps start with two squadrons. Which is Par or lower for regular carriers. I recommend the squad
capacity should be more like this.

         Lvl1        Lvl3        Lvl5        Lvl7       lvl9        lvl10
Squads    3           4           5           7          9            11

This solves several problems:
1.) Firepower: Early game, Cap carriers struggle to dish out damage as fast as other cap ships. Adding an extra
squadron to begin with (and another at lvl3) would pose more of a threat to an enemy early game fleet. (3 bomber
squads could spell trouble for any lvl1 cap, and particularly for Bombardment caps with no fighter protection until
they level up a few times)

2.) SC buff abilities: Strikecraft are these Caps specialty, so shouldn't their SC related abilities be tahe most
useful? I generally see people using Skirantras solely for repair cloud, and halcyon solely for push, and sova for
embargo if anything at all. Carrier caps in my opinion need to be better at establishing air supremacy in gravwells.
Heavy Fighters is actually a great ability, the problem is the Sova can't field enough squadrons for it to be really
effective at all. With more squadrons though, this ability can gain a lot of power. Imagine having 9 squadrons of
bombers that deal 30% more damage and have 3 more armor, that + instant rebuild(lvl6 ability) = nothing to scoff at.
Adept drone anima is the same way (but needs a slight fix).

3.) Scaling: Carrier caps go from to weak in the beginning of the game, to somewhat inconsequential (or dead meat)
in the late game. I rarely ever see a lvl 10 carrier cap, and it's not easy to keep one alive to reach that point,
which is why I think at their highest level they should be able to field a respectable number of SC. 7 squads just
isn't enough for the abilities to function well and isn't enough for the investment in this cap ship to be worth it.
Since it becomes increasingly difficult to lvl up past level 6 in the late game, I feel the reward for keeping your
Cap Carrier alive for it to reach those levels should be greater, I.e. +2 squads. Plus that late in the game you
dealing with squadron number in the 50+ range. Having 10 or so buffed up squads in those ranks could make a much
greater impact in the air.

NOW ON TO THE GOOD STUFF: THE TRUTH ABOUT STRIKECRAFT

I observed and tested each race's Carrier cap a good deal before I wrote this so I could understand exactly what is
wrong with them and noticed some peculiar things about strike craft behavior. Following these observations and a few
tests I've found that SC are at their best when they're standing still. Here's why:

Attack behavior vs flak: Flak cruisers are designed to destroy swarming enemies and deal the most damage when all
their guns are firing. When Strikecraft are flying around they are the most vulnerable to flak, allowing the
frigates to target up to 5 at one time, and dealing ALL of their damage to your squadrons. By telling your squadrons
to hold position, flak can only use a fraction of their total fire power (2 guns max). I tested my theory on flak
militia and found that stationary squads live significantly longer than moving squadrons against flak. I sent 4
squads(from a Sova) against 3 flaks. I had 2 moving and 2 stationary. The stationary fighters lived nearly the
entire fight between the sova and the militia, while moving ones died quickly after engaging.

Attacking frigates: Stationary fighters are more efficient at killing frigates because they are not out of range of
their target when their weapon cooldown expires(which happens occasionally when they're flying around), therefore
dealing their damage quicker.

Defending against other Strikecraft: During my trials I noticed that all the strikecraft have 2 basic attack
behaviors, 1.) Circle and fire, and 2.) Linear attack passes. I tested stationary TEC fighters against moving vasari
fighters, and then vice versa and here's what I discovered: Against fighters that chose the cirlce and fire method,
the stationary fighters decimated them, acting like tiny little flak cannons that were able to target all their
force in one direction or many. The circling fighters remained within the stationary ones' attack range and got
mopped up VERY quickly. AGainst the fighters that chose a linear attack pass, the stationary fighters performed
somewhat poorly, but were still able to deal a significant amount of damage (enough for a squadron of fighters set
to attack local area only to clean up with ease). I also tested stationary fighters against a bomber squadron. The
bombers were destroyed on their second pass. Strikecraft choose their own attack behavior, and I've found that they
chose linear about 50% of the time and circling the other 50%. Those choosing to circle get obliterated by
stationary fighters, leaving the other half to deal with all your remaining fighters.

The drawbacks: Attacking ships requires a bit of micro management. Fighters and bombers have a very limited range,
making attacking moving frigates with the hold position behavior enabled somewhat troublesome. First to get them to
stand still, DO NOT issue an attack order, simply tell them to move near the frigate(s) you want them to kill, and
they do the rest on their own. If the frigate decides to move (or retreat!), issue the order to attack until the
frigate stops again or leaves the well. Remember though that they won't automatically attack anything NOT within
their range until you tell them to or set them to a different behavior.

Using stationary fighters to defend your fleet is INCREDIBLY effective (I'd say they are almost better at it than
flak frigates). The nice thing about this is once the fighters are launched in the well, they stick in tow with your
carriers when they are set to hold position, turning your carriers in to super flak.

Pretty Cool stuff.

If you're interested in any of my proposed Carrier Cap fixes, or completely against them let me get your vote on it

HERE!

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356646/

142,164 views 45 replies +2 Loading…
Reply #26 Top

The vasari is okay, the tec sucks and the advent is good. The advents ability to push away strike craft is something thats best not to over look.

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Pbhead, reply 25

Quoting EadTaes, reply 22

And Pbhead I could use that same stupid argivemnt for Rupture with concentration aura why should it do more dmg in range and not when and magicly not do dmg no more when not in range. Same thing. So don't brign me a lame excuse like that.


HEY...

Since you didnt catch the idea with the "it makes sence with advent and vasari" bit... let me expain...

The Rapture has a limited range because it is a buff using the mental powers of the advent peeps onboard, amplified and projected with their psitech... their minds and/or psitech amplification equipment simply cant reach the strike craft that are too far away.

and if you want to make the same argument with vasari... look at repair cloud... you only have so many nanobots that you are dispersing over an area... an area that grows with a cube function... if you try to double the cloud radius... the nanobots would have to occupy 8 times the space... the same thinned-out nano-bots would only be able to repair... 2.5 hp a second instead of 20 hp per second... not nearly as effective as a smaller, denser cloud.

watch your attitude please. 
End of Pbhead's quote

I Oh I get it alright what I wanted to say is you can't use an argument make it valid for others and then retract it and say it's not valid for someone else. That's the broken logic in that statement.

Adition yes if you ahve a set amount of nanite and spread them over a wider area the repair rate should be lower. That's real world physics. This is a game if you try and find absolute real world fixes to a game you will have alot of issue with balance and such. So for games you need to add in game world physics were you can make a nanite cloiud bigger yet still repair the same amount. All int he name of balance and playability.

Plus Tec desperately needs some AoE buff. Currently it only has Targeting uplink and everyone knows how much of a joke that is. Making heavy Strike craft AoE will give TEC some much needed spirit.

 

Reply #28 Top

Defineatly think the carriers should have more squadrons, some of the other captial ships, when high level have more squadrons than the carriers, they should also have some anti fight craft guns, like the garda frigates.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting beavs91, reply 3
Defineatly think the carriers should have more squadrons, some of the other captial ships, when high level have more squadrons than the carriers, they should also have some anti fight craft guns, like the garda frigates.
End of beavs91's quote

Indeed caps do have the weapon slot needed to ahve Flak capabilaties. But their overall flak power should not be mroe then the power of 2 flak frigates.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting EadTaes, reply 4



 the power of 2 flak frigates.
End of EadTaes's quote

Is that base level or level 10

Reply #31 Top

Base lvl for not. If it proves to strong it can be lowered.

 

But it wouldnt work since you can onyl have 1 weapon type per shipa nd cap have capital weapons. You wouldnt be able to put anti very light weapons on it. Unlest the DEVs rewrite that hardcode.

Reply #32 Top

actually you can have three weapon types per ship. The Garda's flak weapons are autocannons, that just have the 'canFireAtFighters' value set as 'TRUE'. The Sova currently only has lasers, and just has left, right, and front banks.

a bank is just a weapon group, so the Sovas could easily accept 2 additional weapon types, while the other 2 races could only accept one type, as the Halcyons have lasers and beams, and the Skirantras have phase missiles and wave cannons.

Reply #33 Top

You have up to three weapons types.  Within each type, you have up to four banks.  These banks are fore, left, right, and back.  Beside each one is a value that is:

Laser/Autocannon/Pulse Gun/Pulse Beam/Plasma/Missile: The damage type is called "backloaded" which means the damage will be instilled upon the target upon impact.  The value determines the damage per volley.

Beam: The damage is a DoT so you define both the duration and the total damage of the beam.  For instance, if you wanted a 3 second beam with 15 DPS, you would tell it to have a damage value of 45 and a duration of 3.

 

Reply #34 Top

Okay rephrase by weapon type I didn't mean lazers, projectile or missile or what ever. I mean't anti-light, anti-medium, capital ect. From what I know you cannot have mroe then 1 damage type per ship. How ever readign back the Vasari SB I remembered that the damage of it'S 2nd weapon is anti-structure and not capital like the other SBs or it's 2 other weapons. So I wonder if it would be possible to do it on a cap now.

Reply #35 Top

ah, I believe that the way that you COULD possibly do this is by having the flak weapon, with its flak attack type (ANTIVERYLIGHT/ANTILIGHT), and have it be a RESEARCHABLE upgrade.

That's probably how the Vasari Orkulus does it.

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Whiskey144, reply 10
ah, I believe that the way that you COULD possibly do this is by having the flak weapon, with its flak attack type (ANTIVERYLIGHT/ANTILIGHT), and have it be a RESEARCHABLE upgrade.

That's probably how the Vasari Orkulus does it.
End of Whiskey144's quote

Hun???? The Vasari SB can kill fighters? That's news to me.

Reply #37 Top

He meant the upgrade for the Orkulus to do Anti Structure damage being purchasable, similar effects could be applied to Carrier Caps to do flak damage in a Mod.

Reply #38 Top

Hmm Indeed but that might only be available to starbases. Last I knew about it was a hardcode you could only have 1 size weapon on a ship. So if the game see SB as a ship maybe it cna work but if they created a new hardcode for SB it probably will not work. Either way I am far to inexperience at modding to be able to say for sure.

Hmm a quick look at the capital ship files says it should be possible since each individual weapon systme has it size listed. A test would be in order in the near future

Reply #39 Top

i was thinking about the use of stationary fighters, and started asking myself about stationnary bombers, did anyone managed to try this agaisnt sb or anything ? sound's like a potential faster method to kill a transcencia or an argonev. any idea how far a bomber can shoot ?

i m gonna try this asap but actually i m leaving for holidays and can't until next week

Reply #40 Top

well, I would think that it would be possible to have a research subject that affects one+ ships and gives them a new weapon&attack type.

Deceiver_0, you got it right. The Vas SB has 3 different attack types.  Here's the weapons data from the starbase:

NumWeapons 3
Weapon
 WeaponType "Projectile"
 damageEnums
  AttackType "ANTIHEAVY"
  DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
  DamageApplyType "BACKLOADED"
  DamageType "ENERGY"
  WeaponClassType "PULSEGUN"
 DamagePerBank:FRONT 186.000000
 DamagePerBank:BACK 186.000000
 DamagePerBank:LEFT 186.000000
 DamagePerBank:RIGHT 186.000000
 Range 8000.000000
 PreBuffCooldownTime 5.000000
 CanFireAtFighter FALSE
 SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
 PointStaggerDelay 0.200000
 TravelSpeed 1800.000000
 Duration 0.000000
 fireConstraintType "CanAlwaysFire"
 WeaponEffects
  weaponType "Projectile"
  burstCount 3
  burstDelay 0.350000
  muzzleEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunHeavy_Muzzle"
  muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 1.000000
  muzzleSounds
   soundCount 2
   sound "WEAPON_PHASECAPITALPULSEGUNHEAVY_MUZZLE"
   sound "WEAPON_PHASECAPITALPULSEGUNHEAVY_MUZZLE_ALT1"
  hitEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunHeavy_Hit"
  hitHullEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_ENERGYHEAVY_HITHULL"
  hitShieldsEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_GENERICHEAVY_HITSHIELDS"
  projectileTravelEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalPulseGunHeavy_Travel"
Weapon
 WeaponType "Projectile"
 damageEnums
  AttackType "ANTIMODULE"
  DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
  DamageApplyType "OVERTIME"
  DamageType "ENERGY"
  WeaponClassType "CHAOSBOLT"
 DamagePerBank:FRONT 164.000000
 DamagePerBank:BACK 164.000000
 DamagePerBank:LEFT 164.000000
 DamagePerBank:RIGHT 164.000000
 Range 6000.000000
 PreBuffCooldownTime 9.000000
 CanFireAtFighter FALSE
 SynchronizedTargeting TRUE
 PointStaggerDelay 0.900000
 TravelSpeed 1300.000000
 Duration 0.000000
 fireConstraintType "StarBaseUpgradeLevel"
 requiredStarBaseWeaponLevel 1
 WeaponEffects
  weaponType "Projectile"
  burstCount 10
  burstDelay 0.100000
  muzzleEffectName "Weapon_PhaseStarBaseChaosBolt_Muzzle"
  muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 0.300000
  muzzleSounds
   soundCount 2
   sound "WEAPON_PHASECAPITALCHAOSBOLT_MUZZLE_ALT1"
   sound "WEAPON_PHASECAPITALCHAOSBOLT_MUZZLE"
  hitEffectName "Weapon_PhaseStarBaseChaosBolt_Hit"
  hitHullEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_ENERGYHEAVY_HITHULL"
  hitShieldsEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_GENERICHEAVY_HITSHIELDS"
  projectileTravelEffectName "Weapon_PhaseStarBaseChaosBolt_Travel"
Weapon
 WeaponType "Missile"
 damageEnums
  AttackType "CAPITALSHIP"
  DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
  DamageApplyType "BACKLOADED"
  DamageType "PHYSICAL"
  WeaponClassType "PHASEMISSILE"
 DamagePerBank:FRONT 325.000000
 DamagePerBank:BACK 325.000000
 DamagePerBank:LEFT 325.000000
 DamagePerBank:RIGHT 325.000000
 Range 10500.000000
 PreBuffCooldownTime 10.000000
 CanFireAtFighter FALSE
 SynchronizedTargeting FALSE
 PointStaggerDelay 0.080000
 TravelSpeed 1000.000000
 Duration 0.000000
 fireConstraintType "StarBaseUpgradeLevel"
 requiredStarBaseWeaponLevel 2
 WeaponEffects
  weaponType "Missile"
  burstCount 2
  burstDelay 0.600000
  muzzleEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalMissileUltra_Muzzle"
  muzzleSoundMinRespawnTime 0.100000
  muzzleSounds
   soundCount 2
   sound "WEAPON_PHASECAPITALMISSILEHEAVY_MUZZLE"
   sound "WEAPON_PHASECAPITALMISSILEHEAVY_MUZZLE_ALT1"
  hitEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalMissileUltra_Hit"
  hitHullEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_PHASEMISSILEHEAVY_HITGENERIC"
  hitShieldsEffectSounds
   soundCount 1
   sound "WEAPONIMPACT_PHASEMISSILEHEAVY_HITGENERIC"
  missileTravelEffectName "Weapon_PhaseCapitalMissileUltra_Travel"
  missileStartTurningDistance 250.000000
  missileSlowTurnRate 0.708997
  missileMaxSlowTurnTime 6.000000

As you can see, it has three attack types. Its Pulse Guns (PULSEGUN) do ANTIHEAVY damage, its Disintegrators (CHAOSBOLT), ANTIMODULE, and its Phase Missiles (PHASEMISSILE, CAPITALSHIP. Note that the TEC Hangar uses the VERY SAME STYLE of system. The difference is, instead of an SB upgrade giving it a weapon, a research subject does.

If we can do this for SBs and Structures, than I'm certain we can do it for ships.

Reply #41 Top

stationnary bombers, did anyone managed to try this agaisnt sb or anything
End of quote

I tried using stationary bombers, and noticed only little difference in the speed in which they did damage. Stationary was faster, but be careful as they'll be fish in a barrel for fighters, but will live a lot longer against flak.

Reply #42 Top

thx deceiver, i just tried this yesterday at dad's home, with fighter/bomber holding position around a starbase, was quite effective and bombers where well protected by stationary fighter.

but i m not sure the micro/time investissement to place all the squad is worth the pricze to take down a sb a little faster :D

 

pesky little things have too little firing range and holding ALT don't allow us to know their max range...

Reply #43 Top

Totally agree... All carrier capitals should have more squads than carrier cruisers even at Level 1. They are bigger, arent they?

lvl 1 4
lvl 2 4.67
lvl 3 5.34
lvl 4 6.01
lvl 5 6.68
lvl 6 7.35
lvl 7 8.02
lvl 8 8.69
lvl 9 9.36
lvl 10 10.03

Heres the solution by EadTaes. Apply this to all capital carriers, especially Sova, which is just laughable now...

Reply #44 Top

Balance the carriers. Don't buff them excessively. I don't and never have liked the idea of giving the capital carriers more squads. They already bring a cap that does damage in and of itself, plus, it's capital damage. So 100% multipliers all around!

The Vasari cap needs a buff. It's pathetically weak compared to its counterparts in terms of dps. The Sova should have an AOE for Heavy Fighters. Adept Drone Anima needs more SC per squad on the Halcyon, something along the lines of (1,3,5), or the (1,2,3) bonus needs to be area of affect. I don't like the latter though. The Rapture brings this with it's aoe +10%/+20%/+30% damage bonus.

Why the cry for more squads now? You do realize that oustide of the squads a capital ship comes with them? A cap that can seige, can attack, can take a lot of punishment. Granted this is the area that could use some fixing, I agree, but if you give capital carriers too many squads you're going to see capital carrier spams. People did Sova spams once upon a time, and I don't want to see that time again.  

Reply #45 Top

People sova spamed before because Embargo would stack, meaning your could steal 200-300% or more of the income from a planet. Basicly the abilaty was broken and people abuse of things when they are broken.

In my balance mod, when I do eventuly get to balancing the caps I will probably end giving them 10 wings to test it out and see if it is OPed or not. If it is I will be quick to smite them down again. How ever this might also make them vulnerable since I will not be bosting their AM amounts and regen. So if you killing it's strike craft it might not have enought AM to replace it's loses and use abilaties. Someting it can do right now. And even if it can do booth I will increase the AM cost of SC so that it cannot.

As for Adept Drone Anima if the carriers get 10 wings that abilaty might of might not get boosted as for the extra wins will automaticaly mean more SC the abilaty will give. With it's current 3 extra SC per wing and adding 4 new wing to the carrier this means 12 SC that this abilaty will produce. So far if bostign it I am thinking more of making it 1/2/4 or 2/3/4.