Killing Heavily Upgraded Stations as Vasari

Lots and lots of bombers. I'm not a particular expert on the vasari, but they probably have some ability that mollifies armor or increases damage output to a target as well (the Egg's nano-disassembler comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others). You want to avoid allowing small ships into the SBs range, since debris vortex will suck those ships into its own hull points. If their main fleet is elsewhere, and there are two jump points into the grav well, an effective tactic is to have a carrier group at each jump point, jump in with one and lure the SB towards you, but jump out just before it reaches your carriers while simultaneously jumping in the other group.

23k HP means it has everything done that can increase its hull. 4 defense upgrades and all hull researches.

This is a tough fight. A swarm of bombers is your best bet, but there is really no good counter to that starbase on the Vasari side.
You *could* build your own starbase (prepare a few dozen Overseers to heal it as it is deployed), but it really is a very disadvantageous battle, as ther is nothing really you can field that the defender can not.

Vasari against 23k HP orkulus is screwed, which I mentioned some time ago.
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/344391

If the AI has a large fleet guarding that base, you can bet that elsewhere, a vunerable planet exists. 

and absolutely nothing will make this guy move his fleet to defend that planet. (if only because its AI)

Leave that planet to the AI and take everything else.  Several super cannons surronding that planet will turn anything to dust.

If the enemy has deployed it's full force here, then use his/her/it's own strenght against it.  Send a fleet of scouts around to look for mines, and other Starbases.  Once you find a weak spot, pour through there, Starbases can't phase jump, and once his fleet is gone, the Starbase will lack support. 

 

Koda0

its a late game situation against an AI. the answer to this kind of thing is almost always Kostura Cannons. 

 

 

Holy cow, how you people just LOVE going around the subject. Best way to fight it is not to fight it.
Damn how I'm sick of this argumentation. As if world was made exclusively of idiots that don't know why it is stupid to place Starbases in gravwells that can be easily circled.

What if you actually HAVE to down that starbase? When the nearest way around it is 6 jumps away while that starbase is connected to an important world in your trade chain? When that Starbase is covering an important choke point? What if that starbase gives your enemy easy access to your most juicy worlds, while his juicy worlds are a dozen jumps away if you decide to take a long route?
What if this starbase is actually WELL PLACED?

Stop going around the subject claiming that you never have to fight a starbase until you've already won anyway, that there's always somewhere else to attack and that sort of evasive arguments.
Let's for once assume the attacker and defender are not total idiots.

edit. Oh, Kostura. Not again.
If we're actually taking into consideration that the enemy is the AI, then:
Bomber spam + circle the starbase with carriers.

To N3rull-Dude, lighten up. I'd like to remind everyone, before a flame war starts on a POTENTIALLY USEFUL thread, that it's a game. It's not your life, so get over the egos and the hostility. Treat it like a problem, not someone trying to make your life miserable.

Done preaching now. Okay, the problem, to restate, is that you have a 23k star base, probably all three weapons upgrades, and ? frontal shields in a system, that, for whatever reason, you HAVE TO HAVE. Now, as the TEC or the Advent, the answer is obvious, anti-structure frigates and bombers. Whee, obvious solution. As the Vasari, however, you have no anti-structure frigate and it takes too many bombers to really be worthwhile. So, let's go with both scenarios.

1.) You can ignore it

Ignoring it, if possible, is probably a good answer. Just go kick his butt somewhere else. Unfortunately, as N3rull pointed out, sometimes this is a bad idea, if your core worlds are one jumpr from this Starbase. As the Vasari, you have Phasegates. I'm assuming this is late game, and you can afford 1, phase gates, 2, a defensive fleet, and 3, four or five starbases. Just put a starbase and phase gate around the vulnerable worlds, or combine them with the phase gate tech for the starbase, and get a defensive fleet. Juicy world problem solved. Your fleet is also one jump away from any of your vulnerable worlds. Meanwhile, you can go annihilate him elsewhere.

2.) You can't ignore it

A few possibilities. One, you have your kostura cannon, which you then shoot him with. His fleet is in bad shape and probably retreats when you jump in, leaving you free to take out the starbase. Alternatively, you can make a fleet of Assailants, Enforcers, Overseers, and Transporters, heavy on the Overseers, with, of course, an Egg, and just duke it out with the damn thing. Not being able to ignore it is much harder, of course, but if it's a choke point, then do the phase gate/starbase thing, and wait until you can afford a cannon, possibly raiding his worlds that are  a dozen jumps away with a light, fast force, maybe Assailants/Sentinels with the Marauder for quick escapes (Yes, I know, it's junk, but it does speed up the fleet). You could also jump in four or five Ruiners and lay mines all over the place. That's more annoying than it is effective, but it could be enough to give your fleet the edge it needs. Mostly, the 'You can't ignore it' tactics boil down to stalling and waging a war of attrition.  The other thing you can do with the cannon, which I can't believe I forgot until now, is to shoot the assumed Kostura cannon at one of his core worlds, jump your fleet there, and do as much damage as you like.

For both of these strategies, the key is to remember the Vasari's advatadge in remaing mobile, and to use it against the stationary defenses. Remember, averything is situational, so don't plan on there being a 'By the book' offense for every situation.

Alright, I think I covered all the points that were made, by both sides. If I missed something, point it out, and I'll be happy to think about it and post a reply. I realize that my tactics for not ignoring it are a bit lacking, but honestly, there's not as much you can do, but there is ALWAYS an option, or else you've already lost.

Harsh N3rull.  I'm hurt(lol).  I(we) were just trying to see the easiest way out of things(in the end, we must choose between what is easy, and what is right- Albus Dumbledore )  But, if you HAVE to face it, being Vasari, consult an allied fleet which has anti-structure ships.  If you cannot do so, call down pirates to distract his fleet, then attack.  LRF's, support ships, and carriers should do the trick, with some Caps. to soak up some of the damage this thing will deal out.  Good Luck, dude.

 

Koda0

a] Mind he's also Vasari. If you have phase stabz, why can't he have them as well?

b]  jumping behind enemy lines is hardly a really clever idea. You're sending your fleet into a remote place, cut off from reinforcements, surrounded by his culture, his production facilities, his phase stabz... It takes a very well scouted and coordinated attack to actually cause more damage to the enemy than yourself.

c] Remember everything costs money. You can't throw three kosturas out of your pocket and expect he never had those 24000 credits you spent on'em. If you bought 3 Kosturas, it means your enemy already has an advantage (his starbase costs half of what you paid for kosturas, which means more money is in his fleet).

a]Why does it matter if he has stabilizers? If you're on offense, then he will, by necessity, be a bit behind you. You can jump around all day, threatening either the core worlds or his starbase, and he won't be able to catch up. Admittedly, you won't do much damage, but he won't be able to any to you. One of you will make a mistake eventually, but that's ability and not unbalance.

b]No, it's not a clever idea, but it works. There are few better strategies than hitting someone where it hurts, in the wallet. Yeah, you're surrounded by his empire, but so what? You're trying to do damage, not establish a foothold. You can also leave if you have a Maurader in your fleet. See point a about jumping around.

c] A fully upgraded starbase does NOT cost 3000 credits. Call it 1800 for each upgrade, and you get 3000+1800*8=17400. Some of the upgrades cost a bit more, 2700, so call it two of those out of the eight, and you get 19200 credits for that starbase. Now, that's probably about what it takes to get one Kostura on the field. No, I haven't done the math, feel free to do so if you wish, but it's a reasonable guess that that's what it costs. Now, you each have a fleet, he has a starbase, you have a cannon. You're about even, except that you can raid his backworlds while he can't raid yours, because neither of you has notable defenses around your core worlds. I realize that it IS a level 8 tech, but it has no prerequisites. Both of you will have enough worlds for the labs by the time he can get a starbase that's fully upgraded, so you're about even. Yes, I realize I left resources out, but they'll be about even if the credits are.

I am not targeting you directly, N3rull, but you seem to be the only person arguing the other side. Don't take it personally, it's not an insult. It's a compliment when people take you seriously enough to adress you and your points, not a personal insult.

Does the Kostura actually do anything to starbases?  It didn't seem like it . I fired at a few star bases and all it did was pulp my fleet.  I guess it also makes the area a phase stabilizer but not for sure how long it does it for and if it takes a while for it to work. 

Either way seems like a fully defended area with an Orkulus (and possibly repair bays and hangar defenses etc etc) is going to be near impossible to take out considerin ghow long it takes you to upgrade your orkulus even with the "build faster in enemy territory" thing.

SBs are treated like ships for Kostura purposes, so they're only shut down for a short time compared to structures.  Otherwise, it'd arguably be overpowered.

As for the phase-stabilizer effect, two things that come to mind are -- 1) it doesn't matter if the effect stops while you're in transit, you'll still get there anyway, and 2) just bear in mind that as with any other phase jump, you can't turn back or issue new orders while jumping.  It's just that it's a longer jump than normal.

As for Kostura cost, unless the map AND the players were selected for extreme defense, a few Kosturas will probably cost less than building and supporting strong SBs at *every* militarily interesting chokepoint, while having a system-wide effect.   System-vs-system will still be grotesque if you've both fortified stars to the four-SB maximum and there's no inter-system wormhole -- best tactic would probably be using everything possible to increase speed and moving to another well where they'll be at most one base instead of four.

 

One kostura really isn't going to do much against a fully upgrade orkulus.  In fact 10 kostura cannons aren't going to do much against a fully upgraded orkulus.  If this is going against the AI, the starbase won't use deflector shield.  They really need to fix the AI for using abilities.  I think the main problem isn't really the starbase, but really the fleet supporting it.  A orkulus is a tough nut to crack by itself.  You can't recommend bombers because what if the supporting fleet has 50 carriers with fighters and flaks to support it?  Taking this planet's defenses head on is a huge obstacle and I think the best way is to bombard it using kosturas.  Not to damage the starbase, but to damage the fleet and the support structures like the repair bays and phase missle launchers.  Jumping behind the enemy's lines may or may not solve the problem because we don't know the overall strength of fleets on both sides.  What if he jumps there with a sizeable fleet and runs into more starbases and meanwhile the enemy vasari launches attacks on his world also.  It could turn into a huge mess.

Ummm...Ive seen the AI use defector sheild on my just about every time I fight one. Maybe im the fluke.

If HE has a starbase with max upgrades, then YOU can have a starbase with max upgrades too. How can either player get past this unstoppable stalemate? The only solution is to use the Kostura cannon, dump mines on the run, and try not to get raped.

Gravity mines will hit an Orkulus, and can somewhat slow down enemies chasing you. They probably have too small a radius (hit all targets) to do much good on the run, though. Not only that, but he can see you coming (top tech phase radar), and can plan accordingly.

Why does the Vasari starbase have the ability to destabilize phase space? This ability is primarily designed so that players are punished for ignoring an IMMOBILE starbase. The Orkulus is mobile. It shouldn't have the ability to get in your face, and then punish you for running away. That's just too much, and probably the main reason why attacking/avoiding a vasari starbase is SO tough.

Bombers are my favorite.  But often I had fleets so big that I just went in there and killed a 20k+ HP base in 45 seconds, it's not hard. It was in repair but I had an egg which really owns a base.  I also had antorak and carrier cap for some heals, I lost no frigates.

Lots of meat to throw around ^^.

It all matters. Vasari have best toys to mess up your behind enemy lines jumpfest:
- Phase stabilizers allow him to phase jump reinforcements wherever you are going. If you've jumped from planet A to B and now are jumping from B to C because your fleet is at B, then his reinforcements can go directly from A/M/N/H/L/Y/Z to C. You will have a nice welcome party.
- Vasari have the best anti-harassment hangar defense upgrade. Locks out your strikecraft in a huge area for 30 seconds. So bombers aren't likely to oneshot his phase jump inhibitors in 5 seconds. You'll need to move your fleet in to kill it, that's valuable time and effort that slows your raid.
- Overseers have the generally useless jump degradation. If you have teh Kostoorah, then he may have jump degradation done. Throwing in one Overseer into every system that is connected to where you are will make you jump half as fast. The same fleet that you just ran away from will be waiting for you at your destination.

And the Marauder gets gangbanged. Very good business, killing a few structures to leave a lvl6 cap ship to die. No matter how kewl the distort gravity is, one lone lvl6 cap will die in enemy territory.

That's a bit incorrect.
You don't have to build 8 upgrades to that Orky to make it very badass. 3 Defense and 2 offense upgrades are enough to make a hardly scratchable, badly stinging SoB.
Secondly, all he needs to field the thing above is two weapons labs, while you need 8 weapons (kostura) and 5 imperial (phase stabz). A bit uneven if you ask me.

I have a personal shrink ;D.
Seriously, I am fond of discussing things. However, some people always tend to respond around the subject. Instead of helping a person how to do what he asked for they tend to respond with what a fool would ever want to do that anyway sort of answers. That's pumping my blood pressure. I know that a poorly placed SB can be circled, but sometimes you HAVE to kill it and responses as mentioned above don't help at all and what's worse, they are often written in a sarcastic way which inclines that the OP is a fool.

 

I'd also like to address people saying Kostura doesn't do anything to Starbases.
Kostura isn't meant to kill the starbase. It is meant to kill the fleet around it and turn off other tactical defenses OR allow you a phase jump deep behind his starbase.
That the Kostura can do, but I still think the enemy should abuse the fact you're building superweapons instead of defenses/fleet. He, after all, just spent 12k-ish credits on something that you can hardly scratch, which blocks your direct way into his worlds and gives him a safe foothold into your worlds, while you're building cannons that won't stop the enemy raping your territory.

 

I can't remember the last time I saw an AI starbase AI use an ability.  I've been playing only on unfair recently and I've yet to see an advent base nail me disorientation or meteor.  I can't remember the last time I fought a TEC starbase when I wasn't advent.  During those times I always used two radiance ships to shut down their aabilities on the off-chance the AI did use last resort.  I'll try and pay more attention to the orkulus ships on my latest game as TEC.  Maybe I'll see it activate.

Sorry for making your blood boil, N3rull, but if a starbase is fully upgraded and well placed against a direct assault, there's not much you can do about it. 

It kind of sounds patronizing but the best advice to destroy tough starbases is not to let them get upgraded enough to stand up to a Vasari SB. 

On medium and larger maps, there are multiple phase lanes and it costs loads of money and rescoirces  to put a fully upgraded starbase at each entrance to the empire. Much more than a few Kotsura cannons.

Nailed. That's what I'm talking about. Sometimes you can go around a starbase, but sometimes you actually have to kill it. A starbase is not just an immobile block that doesn't hurt you. It is an immobile block that can shield the whole enemy fleet. His fleet can ruin your nearby worlds and safely retreat to where you cannot harm them, into the shadow of their starbase you can't really scratch. (Note: I'm still talking Vasari vs Vasari who don't get torpedo cruisers and whose own starbase will be raped before it is halfway up)
It's like protecting a piece of cheese that lies on the floor from a mouse in a hole. You CAN go to the nearest shop to buy some poison for that mouse, but the moment you get out of the house, the mouse will eat the cheese. On the other hand, you aren't given the tools to harm the mouse or block the hole. The mouse is keeping you in check thanks to that stupid hole. That is the way a well deployed Orkulus works.
I know that when you have a mouse in a hole you can do a dozen things without leaving the house, like putting the cheese in a fridge, but in a Vasari vs Vasari match in Sins, you have no such tricks available.

which is why the matchup is screwed

Again, no good player will attempt to put 15 Orkys around its empire. Better make a huge fleet and invade. But when a good choke is really present...

incredible analogy! ahaha

 

and also, how do you know when a starbase is using frontal shield? I can never tell...does it have an animation?

All right, I have to admit N3rull has some good points. Yes, a Vasari starbase backed by a fleet is a tough SOB for another Vasari to take out. However, some of the things you suggest are mere ability and not balance issues at all. We can spend all day arguing about who is faster and smarter, the guy on offense or the guy on defense. There will be some credits and resources he spends upgrading his starbase that you will have and he will not. So I'll knock down my estimate of 19000 credits to about 12000, or the 5 upgrades you said were necessry. That's still a pile of cash that you can turn into a larger fleet. You'll probably end up with a fleet between 1.5 and 2.5 times the size of his, depending on when in the game it is. I think that's probably a large enough advantage, if he has only 5 upgrades on the starbase.

On the off topic part, yeah, an unaccompanied level 6 Maurader will be turned into space dust in nothing flat. However, that was just a suggestion for delaying tactics. You could skip a cap ship entirely in your raiding fleet, and just use it to take out resource extractors and ? bomb planets. I realize that it would be slowed by PJI's, but with proper scouting, you can avoid/plan for almost anything. No one will heavily defend every single one of his worlds, it's not economically viable. Again, this is tactics in getting around a starbase, not economic strategy to find the balance for the damn thing.

Not really true. 12k credits is 30-ish assailants. 30 assailants are toilet paper for that 2-attack 3-defense starbase. It really isn't all that much when you count everything in.
17 ogrovs (money equivalent to the above) would quickly turn that SB into dust. Starfish would be slower, but would also die a lot slower with Advent's kewltastic shield regeneration.
So, TEC has TNT, Advent has a percussive driller and Vasari are simply left with a rubber eraser against a reinforced concrete wall.