Imbalanced Racial Traits?

I do believe the traits are used to tweak the balance of power on special abilities. Not all abilities are created equal. Even still its not an exact science and there is some thematic reasoning behind the above values.

From your example above on paper the Thalan have the worst deal yet they always seem to be an absolute powerhouse in all my games and ive seen many other players make similar comment. I often use the 10 customisation points to tweak them more or less powerful (ie dumping the points into something less valuable or boosting their already impressive values)

 Also do not forget that the tech trees are not all the same. There may be things in the tech tree that make up for it.

I have a post in a thread somewhere similar to this, where I essentially ignored logistics and gave miniaturization higher priority.  As soon as I can find it I'll edit and link.

Here we are.

I notice you're neglecting to consider the free points that you have to spend on your own, which is not standard across all races.  Up until very recently, the Torians only had 7 points in DA, whereas now they have 8 both in DA and TA.  The Thalans are also hamstrung at 8, and this is probably a carryover from DA where they were a force to be reckoned with.

The bottom line is that both the Thalans and the Arceans get royally screwed in TA.  The Thalans get screwed for tech tree, too.  Did I mention they also get screwed for SA?

Silphius, they're a "powerhouse" because they have nothing to build, so they build ships.  The AI also likes to rush buy things, so the issue of colonization speed is not as much of a handicap as it is to a human player, although the AI does run a larger deficit longer.

After playing with the Altarians last night, I realized that not all tech trees are equal. With the bonuses to Weapons that are available, that initial -20% penalty doesn't seem so bad.

I was also surprised to find that the Altarians can research some Luck bonuses. I already had 50% from customization and Universalists, so I think I've got 70% total now. I hope my enemies aren't wasting any money on defenses.

True, and true.

However, even by my own math, the Altarians aren't that bad, at 18 points total, even including the weapons malus.

And, again, it all depends on how you play-the Korx have an equivalent of 26 points in my book, or 31.9 in DA, but it doesn't help when 18 of that comes from trade and trade routes.

I should have probably clarified the context of 'my games' Sole Soul

I'm still playing DA (until i can get off my butt and organise some way to pay for TA online - I live a credit card free life) so I'm still playing with identical tech trees - which is also why I probably overlooked this aspect to the discussion when I posted.

I've a tendency to run the Thalan as Industrialists (Klackons!) and as such they end up with massive production bonuses. I'm also playing at a level where the AI gets a boost to its economy.

The end result is the Thalan seem to, as you say, pump out a lot of ships. This is not such a bad trait to have during the colonisation phase and they can end up with a staggering amount of territory at a rate beyond which anybody else can physically match. The economy bonus to the AI helps them a great deal in not running themselves into the ground with the production.

If left unchecked the massive land grab can make up for their other failings which is why I labelled them as a powerhouse. I should probably also mention that I am speaking from a context in playing against them as AI instead of playing them myself.

All that said its DA so it really doesnt have much bearing on you guys with TA as from what ive been able to gather the best way to play them is maximise influence output...

At the end of the day I did frame my post with 'I believe' and 'in my games' as was by no means claiming to be an authority on the subject. It just seems logical to me that the trait points are a way to give flavour and balance abilities.

By far... the Altarians are the most powerful race in TA - if only by their tree advantages.

Lemme fire up Galactopedia here for a moment to give, IIRC - a few more examples;

1) DarkEnergy research.

2) Nothing else!

Get techs much faster, you are ahead in most key areas unless you use the cakewalk driven agenda gimmick that the *NoTechBrokering* option truly is.

But, DA has much different balancing considerations for them to be at least up to where Korath can become. Don't start me on the Krynn, though.

Which is why the Thalans are an absolute powerhouse.  Check the link I provided above for a DA evaluation as well-Thalans come in at 17.8 counting spendable points with other bonuses that are not assigned a value (custom race gets 15 points to spend), and their SA is easily in contention for the most powerful SA in the game.  (Breeder and Diplomat are the other top two, although Diplomat is slightly more situational.  Isolationist and Annihilator round out the "good" ones.  Warrior can be useful at times.  Spy and Adapter are generally regarded as worthless.)

Granted, 17.8 is actually the lowest in that list, so what you're seeing is more than likely the SA at work.

In TA, they don't get a chance to abuse their SA quite as much, nor nearly as early on.

Yep, but i'm still a Pacifist who hates Evil tactics no matter how many better ships they can throw at me. If i've got matching defenses soon enough to NOT be conquered. Besides, i can organize a beelow Hive, can't i?

Thalans aren't Evil, they're Neutral.

That Neutrality is indeed a *VERY* sharp edge -- How many times have you seen them keep it though?

Quit playing Terrans, then. 

The lore states the Thalans came back in time to stop the Terrans from doing something-they can't be completely neutral.

On a slightly more serious note, when the Thalan AI is in my games, I never really have any problems with them as far as war goes, and they tend to fight evil races more often than good ones, so they're "neutral" enough for me, I guess.

Storyline wise i would agree, but while my Altarian ass is being kicked off a pretty much tied Influence race, should i bother worrying about how Peacefull i am with 100+ more ships in standby than they send at such key moments?

Hivers screw the wreck of a mid-game - but once they leave their tight area of Space, they *normally* (all things being relative for anything other than THE Conquest Victory) scream for help at peoples already under my thumb.

Let's call this a tie & a gambit by necessary erosion(s), shall we my friend?

Interesting that the Iconians are rated so low. I'd say that their colonization techs are very useful. Plus their alternate tech tree is fascinating.

I also agree that the Altarian weapon penalty is not nearly as important as it appears at first. With their alternate techs and their luck bonuses, they can cause lots of pain. The Korx on the other hand, often get crushed between the low loyalty and the fact that often one of the first laws the UP passes is the trade route restriction on evil races, so the Korx's one racial advantage is routinely flushed.

The Altarians' offense can end up being formidable.

I was trying to play them peacefully, and got attacked by the Drengin, and then the Yor followed. I convinced the Dratha and Terrans to help against the Drengin, but then the Dratha inexplicably declared war on me after the Drengin and Yor surrendered their empires to them. Fortunately, I was way ahead in tech, so I started to crank out Large ships with a couple missles and a few impenetrable Telepathic defenses. These single ships were taking out whole fleets without a scratch.

I invaded all of the Dratha's planets, then took out the Arceans for good measure (they had 2 planets). Meanwhile, a minor race appeared on a planet in my home planet's system. They lasted exactly one week. Free high quality planet! Thanks!

With 90% of the galaxy under my control, and only the Terrans left (shaking in their moon boots), the 'good' Altarians won a cultural victory.

I've yet to see a shorter but highly comprehensive AAR anywhere on this site such as what is written above, obviously.

Timing turns is the fun part and having the ability to pick what Victories we wish is icing on the non-cake-walk rides.

-Iconians get two extreme world techs.
-Yor get one extreme world tech and the single most annoying effect in the game: In their space you can only move 3pc/wk.
-Korath get one extreme world tech, and the ability to turn any world they attack into an extreme world...that they just so happen to have the tech for...and they even get to ignore population and soldiering while doing so.

By any account, the Iconian SA is subpar; mediocre and highly situational at best.  To attempt to compare either of the above halves of the abilities of the races in question to another 1k base research saved (multiplied by tech speed and galaxy size [larger = costs more], such that it's oh about 600-660 on a gigantic on very fast) shows you exactly how badly the Iconians got screwed.

Their tree is somewhat interesting in TA, but it does not differ from the Yor significantly enough to be worthy of merit, apart from their repair bonus.  You could say the farms differ, and the Yor do get an interesting method there, but I wouldn't call that enough, nor would I weigh it in the favor of the Iconians.

I play with very slow tech and frequent extreme worlds, and under those conditions super adapter is extremely powerful.  By the time anyone else gets the advanced colonization techs, the Iconians (and my custom races with that ability) have 3x as many planets as anyone else.

What difficulty?  While I'm at it, what galaxy size?

1000 tp tech, Very Slow:
Tiny: 978
Small: 1009
Medium: 1040
Large: 1121
Huge: 1206
Gigantic: 1303
Immense: 1355

Also, with regards to my above post, see how much better you'd do using Isolationist or Annihilator (mostly Isolationist for the colonization stage).  Granted, in my experience (and YMMV), barren worlds aren't quite as common as the rest, but it's still generally worth the other half of the ability.

And how did you fare before TA brought you that option? 

I usually play on painful, large to immense galaxy size.  The Yor super ability is okay, but no one seems to build fast ships in my games except occasionally the Terrans.  In the colonization phase only the Yor's most immediate neighbours are affected, and not by much at that stage of the game.  Super Annihilator is very powerful, no doubt -- at least in the player's hands.  The AI seem to get much more mileage from Super Adapter.

As for how I fared before the extreme worlds slider in TA -- well, I had a lot less fun.  I'm pretty sure I was the first to suggest that particular feature during the late beta stages

I've played both the Yor and the Iconians in TA, and I find the Iconians much more my speed.  Their manufacturing and research in the early game is phenomenal - if you can get your economy in order, you can be off to the races no prob.  The reason for this is due to the efficiency of Replicator and Interstellar Refinery buildings, with the accompanying efficiency of the research buildings.  If you can find multiplier tiles, that efficiency goes up even more.

Also, their Organic Hull Plating technology is incredible.  Assuming you can trade out for even second rate weapons tech, you can get together a killer navy at the Small and Medium Ship stages just be relying on plating and HP plusses for defense.  The Korath Annihilator ability and the Yor Isolationist abilities are definitely stronger in and of themselves, but the packages aren't quite so lopsided taken together.

For the last time.

This is not about their trees.  This is about the SA's.

Personally, I haven't played as a stock race since...Beta 4?...and haven't in DA in quite some time as well.  I prefer to mix and match.

As far as the trees go, the Yor tree is to the Iconian tree as the Drengin tree is to the Korath tree-they share a large amount of elements, among them labs and factories.  The cost/production/maintenance are all practically the same; the factories are just renamed.  They also both get starting one per planet research improvements, although the Iconian tree has one more.

Sole Soul:

If you read the entire thing, you would note that I agreed that the SA's taken in isolation were as you supposed.   That said, if you haven't played any of the stock races for a long while, how can you confidently make assessments on their relative strengths, all things considered?

Decent point.  I did read the entire thing; I just didn't modify my post to make it less blunt.

The only real answer I have to that question is that they haven't changed all that much since TA Beta 4, when the Thalans were added.  I can't remember, but I think that was the last beta of TA that added races back in.

Welcome back, though.  Haven't seen you in a while.

In TA, the Thalans start off with the ability to build some powerful GA very cheaply.  These make the homeworld a powerhouse and as long as the Thalan can expand quickly, with this superb headstart they can be a force to be reckoned with.