Suggestion: reduce weapon ranges!

and anything else to do with combat

I like the "idea" of commanding your fleet from a distance with all the icons and being able to zoom in to see the action up close but...

Half the time the weapon ranges are so long that you can't see anything except the ship you're focusing on and a bunch of icons.  Look!  Theres a dot!  wait its getting bigger, I think its a ship!  Its at least 10pixels big now! Its definetly a ship, its shooting at me!"

To make combat more fun to watch up close, I think (just my opinion) all weapon, ability, and sheild ranges need to be reduced...  by at least a quarter.  Maybe cut them in half.

Excellent game regardless.
     snazzed

43,991 views 28 replies
Reply #1 Top

"I can't see the ships, therefore make the weapon ranges shorter"? Since your complaint is purely about the aesthetics, why would you want to change the entire flow of combat in a gravity well to fix that?

Might I instead suggest making the ships larger? Homeworld 2 had an option that deliberately skewed the ship sizes to make them more visible on the field.

Reply #2 Top

larger works for me, some ships dont exactly feel like theyre crewed by hundreds or thousands of people after all. One could blame this on the sheer nature of RTS but ... well theres gotta be a way to aesthetically solve that.

Reply #3 Top

@Bobucles

Why would I want the entire flow of combat?  I'm not suggesting changing the flow of combat.  I should think that reducing everything in proportion would leave the game mechanics intact. 

As for the aesthetics, I should think thats a giant part of gaming today.  After all, why do wa all have $200 video cards?  But you're right about the HW2 NLIPS option...   don't know why I didn't think of that.  It would be a better solution, allowing people like me to get their eye-candy and allowing others to play "accurate".

I'll change my sentiment.  Instead of Reduce Weapons Ranges, implement NLIPS!  What did that stand for, anyway?  Non-Linear I Perspective Scaling?

Thanks
     snazzed

Reply #4 Top

I think it is all just fine, I guess this is just random "I wanna complain at sth" topic.

You can't lower the ranges or else your ships will go huggin' and kissin' instead of shooting one another.
You can't also scale things up even more, because Homeworld unit shooting ranges were greater than Sins units' ones, so what worked there would actually make Sins look awkward.

I, for the matter, think some unit's ranges are laughably small. Making them smaller, or effectively smaller (by increasing ship sizes) would be a fail.

Today, an 18 meter long aircraft can shoot down targets 120 kilometers away, this is over 6500 times its own length. In Sins that ratio is around 80 in case of LRMs and 20 in case of heavy cruisers. I suppose this is nowhere near demanding a reduction.

Reply #5 Top

I should think that reducing everything in proportion would leave the game mechanics intact.
End of quote
So you're cutting the size of the maps in half, cutting the gravity wells in half, cutting the travel distances in half as well? Don't forget to cut ability ranges in half with half the area effect. That absolutely changes things.

Your concern is with visually spotting the ships in combat. All that needs to change are how the visibility of ships works.

Reply #6 Top

that is the dumbest suggestion i've ever seen!!!! if anything make them bigger...there is no resistance in space therefore the ammo/bullets would travel on forever unless acted upon by something else (gravity)....

Reply #7 Top

If anything, the weapon ranges should be larger. If you make them smaller, Carriers will never have to worry about being killed. As it is, the ranges that ships open fire at a small compared to what they should be.

Reply #8 Top

So you're cutting the size of the maps in half, cutting the gravity wells in half, cutting the travel distances in half as well? Don't forget to cut ability ranges in half with half the area effect. That absolutely changes things.
End of quote

That actually will not do a single thing to combat playing mechanics because essientialy your scaling down the game into a smaller graphical size and it will work exactley the same.

If anything, the weapon ranges should be larger. If you make them smaller, Carriers will never have to worry about being killed. As it is, the ranges that ships open fire at a small compared to what they should be.
End of quote

I completely agree with adding long range weaponry.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting DarthCaedusMorgan, reply 8
That actually will not do a single thing to combat playing mechanics because essientialy your scaling down the game into a smaller graphical size and it will work exactley the same.
End of DarthCaedusMorgan's quote
Actually that was the irony he implied in the message you answered with the above ;).

Seriously, in HW2 ships engaged at far greater ranges than in Sins. If anything, the range at which ships turn from 3d models into symbols should be adjustable.

Reply #10 Top

That actually will not do a single thing to combat playing mechanics because essientialy your scaling down the game into a smaller graphical size and it will work exactley the same.
End of quote
You're also making the graphical sizes smaller to boot? That puts you back at square one.

Reply #11 Top

Half the time the weapon ranges are so long that you can't see anything
End of quote

Buy a bigger monitor, or pick a higher resolution, so you can see more on the screen at once.  Thats your problem!

Reply #12 Top

this is a losing battle snazzed...no one agrees, i'm sorry...

Reply #13 Top

hmmm... i think i understand the "visual" difficulty here, in that, yes, ships firing on ships in any given grav well, are 1. on our side, they look like close ups of ships, but on the other side, look like small colored icons, or dots, not the ship itself, not the picture of a ship. This does something for the epicness, large fleets hammering at large fleets, dozens or hundreds of ships battling to the death. However, the reduced weapon ranges does mean ships have to get closer to engage. Therefor the ships have to be more defined. Not the dot or the icon, but a ship. One ship fighting against another ship is more interesting. Yes, i agree with that sentiment.  :)

-Teal

 

Reply #14 Top

Teal, this is a forum, not a term paper....just fyi :)

Reply #15 Top

why hasn't anyone just said...

If you don't like the way your game plays... mod it!

It is very easy to change weapon ranges and damage and the like.

So why not do it and then just play your mod?

 

Then we don't have to take up forum space complaining about problems that wouldn't exist.

Right?

just a thought.

Reply #16 Top

Hmmm.... i altered a clean copy of the gameinfo folder and set all weapons and abilities to half their original value. The abilities, both friendly support and enemy aggressive were also set at half their original values just to keep everything in balance.

I played as advent, for six conquests of planets using a small fleet of 5 capitals, 10 illuminators, 10 scouts and 5 colony ships. All total 30. I kept the perspective at max ship closeup view, and the ships do look beautiful. :)  At this vantage i would say that the scale is fine, the planets also at this view look more planet-sized in relation to the ships. There were some difficulties however.

At close range the ship movement was jerky when the fleet grouping was normal, i had to enlarge it to "loose" grouping to get the ship movement to smooth out as the ships were too close together. I am assuming in normal zoom-in/zoom-out mode i didnt notice because i was not right on top of the ships. Also in battle, which were relatively small of course to begin with, less than 10 enemy ships, averaging, 2,3, 4 and 5 enemy ships per new planet. It wasn't until i was halfway across the grav well that i noticed they were there at all, well... the fleet tree at the left of course let me know, but without any grids or icons for ships on a black space background, it was hard to see much of anything beyond several hundred meters beyond the ship's perspective. This was both interesting and a little frustrating, in that it was a different "feel" but also that information that i was used to having in a battle (enemy fleet size, location... etc...) was missing. Also in battle the reduced weapon ranges had a tendency to bunch my ships up on one another in attacking the grouped enemies.  :(

Traveling was hindered by not having any sort of over-view, and i found myself wanting a mini-map to orient myself. Of course the zoom-out feature accomplishes that with no loss of screen real-estate, but i was hoping for a HUD with a press of a button that would give me proximity information for enemies in the well, and for planets close by without having to get out of the close up view. Hmmmm.... :(

Anyway, it is interesting. I think...  :)

Perhaps a third drop would be better than half?  But still even at half the weapon range, ships raging in battle across the other side of the grav well still appeared as icons.  :(  Perhaps the only way to adjust this would be to shrink the grav well as well. I dont know. Of course that may complicate the "On top of one another" problem. If i lessen the range to only a third instead of half, then i still have the same size well, and the icons at a distance view of other battling ships. With the icon view removed, in the no screen grid, icons, names, mesh ownership icons and such, it was difficult to even see there was a battle on the other side at all, with so few ships involved. I am assuming of course that if there were 25 or more raging, it would be much easier to see the battle. Of course if i lighten the background, then the ships and battles are easier to see, but the weapon effects such as bullets are almost totally un-noticed at all. So there is that contradiction of problems.

Also, in heavy battle with just a handful of ships at close range, (max ship view as before) the weapon effects of lasers, smoke, fire and electro/magnetic emminations from the battered craft slowed the frame rate down to a slide-show on the screen. If i pulled back into a zoom view however that completely disappeared.

So... will halving the weapon ranges work?  I don't know to be honest. I didn't anticipate the other problems arising before actually trying it, and there could possibly be answers to each of these that would work, but they probably need to come from the devs instead of modders, as toggles and pop-up HUD's for close-up view is something i think would take hardcoding. Anyway, i am going to try again, with 1/3 ranges instead of half and see what kind of effect that produces. I dont think it will answer the grav-well identification of enemies, or the planet travel problems with being so close up. But it may of course smooth out the jerkiness of the ship movement and the battles dropping frame rate. But there is still of course the icons at a distance thing. Perhaps i should try it with a normal sized grav-well,  and then reduce the well, haha, perhaps by a third instead of the half i was going to try. But we shall see.

Interesting experiment though.  :)

Take care, hope this helps, if you still want to try it for yourself however, i can post the close up changes in a mini mod and you can download it and give it a try. Let me know. Til then i will try the new 1/3 range reduction and the smaller grav-well and get back to you.

Sincerely,

-Teal

 

Reply #17 Top

Ooops!!

               Didn't mean to over-write, just trying to be complete, thats all.  :)  But thank you for the heads up, i sometimes get carried away.

Take care,

-Teal

 

Reply #18 Top

Hey Teal at this point you should create a website that house all of your term papers, then in forum just get your point across in a small summary then provide a link to that spot, so you will not irriatate people.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting EviliroN, reply 15
why hasn't anyone just said...

If you don't like the way your game plays... mod it!

It is very easy to change weapon ranges and damage and the like.

So why not do it and then just play your mod?
...
End of EviliroN's quote

*RANT* Why not mod it myself?  I'm in my 30s and a father of two...  a newborn and a toddler.  I have a Full Time, good, but stressful job at a Major Bank (which is even worse considering whats going on in the Financial Sector right now).  I have another hobby that I try to shoehorn into my life and I would love to get back into my sport of choice...  if I had time.  I barely get the opportnity to PLAY Sins, never mind MOD it!  Seriously, I'm building myself a new gaming rig in a couple of months, and I'm starting to wonder if I should bother!

Sorry Eviliron, don't take it personally.  This is just one of my pet peeves.  It really gets me when people say that.  I particularly love it when I go to forums for a problem with my Linux based PVR and you invariably get one person who, to their benefit, is only teying to be helpful and they say stuff like, "its open source!  You can get the code from ~whereever~ make the changes you need and just recompile."  Oh, yay, can I please?!

*end rant*

@ Phalnax811 & mja5000 and everyone who points out the flaws in reducing the weapon ranges, or those of you talking about *real life* ranges, you're entirely missing the point.  Have you ever noticed that TV shows are seldom factually accurate?  Or movies?  Books?  The purpose of all of these things, computer games included, is to be *entertaining*.  Sometimes things get glossed over or ignored to improve the flow or drama of the show / book / movie...  or computer game.

Hell, we're talking about Space Combat using fictional races with fictional technologies.  If you want you can make up some stupid fluff to address the differences with "real life".  Gee, our Plasma weapons only have an effective range of 1000m because the ionized gas disperses too quickly in zero G.  Or the Beam Weapons don't fire as far as you would think because so much energy is dissipated in the visible EM spectrum, and good portion gets absorbed by space dust and debris.

I was gonna start listing games and the ways they aren't accurate, but forget it...  I'll just do 2 categories.

Every unit in every Strategy game I've ever played needs to be smaller, move slower and shoot farther.  How about all these 1st person shooters out there?  They should all be 1 hit and you're out of the game.  Your body armour may keep you from getting killed but your wound will take you out of the game.  Never mind that I just took a 45cal to the arm!  I have a MedKit! w-0-0-t!

Ok, one more...  I just ran over a glowing orb that was floating in mid air and now I'm INVULNERABLE for 30seconds!  Oh, it'll respawn in a minute!  And when I die, I'll respawn too!

You wanna hear a stupid idea?  Lets make games Real-World Accurate!  How un-fun would that be!  News flash.  Games that are Real-world accurate, or as close as you can resonably get, aren't called "games".  They're called "simulations".

Wow, I guess I wasn't done ranting.

@anyone else that disagrees:  If its my opinion that games are meant to be fun and being able to SEE the ships you're fighting would make the game more enjoyable, thats my opinion.  If you dissagree, despite all my ranting above, thats your opinion...  and you're not wrong either.

Also, if you're chaging scales, the game mechanics don't have to stay as they are.  As long as they remain balanced and the game is still fun.  Do you seriously think Ironclad used these ship sizes and ranges because it was the only way they could make the title playable?  No.  They made choices and decisions based on what they thought made sense and then tweaked things until they felt the balance and mechanics were right...  for THOSE decisions!

Side note, again, I think Homeworld2 had the right balance with the NLIPS option.  And, as I pointed out in my second post, for all you "real world accurate" people, the option can be turned on/off.

Did I just turn into a Forum Troll?
     snazzed

Reply #20 Top

Not even going to bother reading that.  I'm 18 and father of 0 (unlike some my age :p).  This is still a forum and a simple/pointless thread that's dieing.  If Stardock/Ironclad sees that most of us disagree, they won't change it.  The only way to change it is modding it yourself.  Or stop complaining and play this awesome game.  Or suck it up but that's along the same lines as not complaining.

No hard feelings but it's as simple as that...no term paper required...

My only complaint...where are the moons!??!! :D

Reply #21 Top

Just re-read my post from yesterday...  little FlameTastic.  I apologise to everyone on the board who read it.  I'm gonna blame it on Newborn Induced Sleep Deprivation.

If anyone from Ironclad is reading, I've dreamed up a system where you can use variable sized ships and not have it impact ranges or mechanics.  Feel free to contact me if you're interested.

Like I think they will.  Heh heh.

Thanks and Sorry
     snazzed

Reply #22 Top

No need to be sorry Snazzed, you are fine, and as for opinions about playing the game, you are entitled as much as anyone.

I tried the changed specs and had some difficulties, but hey, thats just me. I posted about it above. Also, after that i changed the specs again, this time only a third down instead of all the way to half down. It plays much better, not running all over other ships. Also lighter backgrounds helped see better for me, and a slight pull out from all the way zoomed in. close enough to see better, not too close to see only one ship at a time.  :)

Anyway. I have a copy of the changed specs and if you like i can post them on the Sins mod site and you can down load them and play them for yourself, no modding on your part at all.  :)

Anyway, hope the kids are doing well and you still get to enjoy some time in the game or your other sport, take care, keep gaming!!  :)

-Teal

 

Reply #23 Top

I would buy a bigger monitor and up the resolution, I can usually see most things that my Akkan BCs are shooting at, and it looks like they might be changing the size of ships in Entrenchment, because all of the ships were much larger then they appeared in the original in my eyes.

Reply #24 Top

Ship size to planet ratio are a bit lopsided...ships are huge compared.  Any idea in feet (or miles?) how big the ships are supposed to be?

Reply #25 Top

You are right, they do appear to be miles in size.  Bigger planets could still be zoomed out to work around, but the up close size could be adjusted. Or is this possible already? Like the new planets and suns in 7DS and Uzii's mod and BailKnights?  Or adjustable as the grav well settings are, like 33% ?  It would be nice to simply change numbers to change the planet "View" without actually really having to change the model. Hmmmm.... Dont know. Unless, we "have" to export the planet or sun, change the resolution size and re-import?  Not sure on this, maybe someone who has worked with the planets or suns could say.

-Teal

just some thoughts