[Gameplay] A Review of the Creeps

After reading a lot of this forum, it seems like many people feel that the tiny units that follow your Demigod into battle are too weak, simply a distraction, a way to get more cash, and will never really affect the flow of a battle.

This isn't completely true. Some of them are laughable and I have to agree that they exist only to get the other side more cash, but not all of them.

Here's a list of the various creeps and what I'v seen them do so far. Their damage as listed is an average on an unarmored target (more on this later)

The Tower of Light: The defense both sides employ are good enough to stop a single Demigod getting them down early. They hit for about 200, and seem to increase their damage if there are many of them together. They also take a while to destroy.

The Soldier, tiny dudes with hammer: These guys are a real joke. They get one-shot by everything, and hit for 12, which will never kill anyone since Demigods start with 1K to 2K health.

The Archer, skinny dudes with bows: They are a ranged version of the Soldiers. No health, and deal 13 damage, they'l never kill anyone either.

The Healer, fat dudes on chairs: These ones make a difference. They heal allies for 240~260, seem to prioritize Demigods, and hit enemies for 95~100. They also have a fair amout of health.

The Catapultausaurus (lol): These guys also make a difference, seeing as they hit for almost 400 and have a hell of a long range.

The Angels, flying dudes: These are non-entities as well. They hit for 40, but don't hit fast, have no health, and show up late game when 40 isn't going to kill anyone

The Giants, big rock dudes with big clubs: These guys come out neer the end of the game and hit for 400 per swing of their big clubs, they squash the lesser creeps, they hit pretty fast and are hard to kill.

It's important to remember that all these damage values are BEFORE ARMOR. This means that on a level 5 to 10 Rook who's gotten some armor items (to about 50% reduction), all these values are cut in half which is why damage could use to be upped by a fair amount even on the hardest hitting creeps.

So it's really not too bad. There's only 3 sort of creeps that are totaly useless, the soldiers, the archers and the angels.

There's many ways these cull fill roles on the battlefield. Simply upping their damage is an option, or being unable to walk through soldiers (which would make them act as line blockers). Giving archers a slowing attack could help. I don't know about the angles though, probably just increased damage. Or giving them a charge where they would hit enemies in a line for ~200.

The problemwith Towers is that by the time you get to the last row of towers, they aren't hitting you for much anymore. Maybe giving towers more damage the closer they are to the stronghold, or putting more powerful towers there so you can't just waltz in and ignore them as you pound on the Stronghold.

 

But overall my main problem with the creeps is... The Rook. He is too powerful compared to creeps (not to other Demigods) his normal attacks smashes rows of them, his hammer will decimate an entire push, and his high armor and huge healthpool make their attacks do nothing to him.

 

Thank you for your time.

13,255 views 22 replies
Reply #1 Top

The healers heal for 10% i believe.  Not a set number.

 

This beta isn't about balancing.

Any balancing done now will be imbalanced 2 months from now when new things are added.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting innociv, reply 1
The healers heal for 10% i believe.  Not a set number.

 

This beta isn't about balancing.

Any balancing done now will be imbalanced 2 months from now when new things are added.
End of innociv's quote

 

There's a difference between game balance and design choices. Changing numbers and values is balance, having a giant who can ignore creeps is a design choice.

Creeps that don't block movement is a design choice.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting innociv, reply 1
The healers heal for 10% i believe.  Not a set number.

 

This beta isn't about balancing.

Any balancing done now will be imbalanced 2 months from now when new things are added.
End of innociv's quote

 

what he said

Reply #4 Top

Minotaurs:   4 Xp     8 Gold    200 HP    7 Spawns

- Archers:      4 Xp      17 Gold   150 HP    3 Spawns

- Priests:      15 Xp     66 Gold   400 HP    2 Spawns

- Catas:      15 Xp     165 Gold   400 Hp   2 Spawns

- Angels:     10 Xp    165 Gold   300 Hp   3 Spawns

- Golems:   30 Xp      660 Gold   1.5k Hp   1 Spawn

 

These are the other stats of the Creeps i could get :)

 

Yes, they could make the soldiers + archers at least a bit more important. Up the damage to 20-30each (since their a pack of seven you'll notice if you stand in a grp) to make them more to glasscannons. They still shall die in seconds, but atleast should be an annoyance if you dont kill them.. right now, their just "there", money with legs.

Priests do percentage heal, yes. But i dont know how much. If you say they heal themself for ~200Hp and they got 400 it would mean they heal 50% which could be, since they healed me a few times and i thought it was pretty much. They shouldnt do more dmg, they are fine imo. Catapults are really good, but you can dodge their missiles since its a ground attack. Plus, i dont like the fact, that they outrange the towers but well, thats just me.

Angles are pretty usless right now.. And Golems are only good for squishing the little Soldiers, they walk too slow, swing too slow - just are too slow. Yeah, they swing you for good 400dmg splashed - if the opponent gets the War Idol it gets nasty with these guys. And 1.5k Hp is a nice number for only a "creep". +they're walking Goldmines which i like to focus fire fast^^

Imo, Soldiers, Archers, Angels and Tower should get a buff. The rest is fine. But we can wait, till we see the General creeps etc.

So long,

Aspartem

Reply #5 Top

Yeah i think, at this point, in beta 1, minotaurs and archers should do around double damage, but the same hp.  I think high damage low hp is the way to go with most creeps.

But there is a ton of gameplay stuff.  I feel like GPG would end up keep having to mess around with stats and them them being wrong for the next build (a) week(s) later.  Waste of their time.

 

Design is one thing, the balance is another.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting innociv, reply 5
Yeah i think, at this point, in beta 1, minotaurs and archers should do around double damage, but the same hp.  I think high damage low hp is the way to go with most creeps.

But there is a ton of gameplay stuff.  I feel like GPG would end up keep having to mess around with stats and them them being wrong for the next build (a) week(s) later.  Waste of their time.

 

Design is one thing, the balance is another.
End of innociv's quote

My main point was that isntead of fiddling with damage numbers, which would just make the game more dota-like, they could fiddle with abilities. Making Soldiers block movement would add a whole new side to the game, making archers slow you as well. There's more things that can be done as well as increasing damage.

Reply #7 Top

Making minotaurs block movement would really suck for the Rook.

 

I had an idea where Demigods should "wade" through troops (move through them still, no blocking, but at much slower movement speed, and attacking/killing troops as they do so like supcom experimentals would do) but that's for another time.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Sigol, reply 6



Quoting innociv,
reply 5
Yeah i think, at this point, in beta 1, minotaurs and archers should do around double damage, but the same hp.  I think high damage low hp is the way to go with most creeps.

But there is a ton of gameplay stuff.  I feel like GPG would end up keep having to mess around with stats and them them being wrong for the next build (a) week(s) later.  Waste of their time.

 

Design is one thing, the balance is another.



My main point was that isntead of fiddling with damage numbers, which would just make the game more dota-like, they could fiddle with abilities. Making Soldiers block movement would add a whole new side to the game, making archers slow you as well. There's more things that can be done as well as increasing damage.
End of Sigol's quote

lol at DotA part...

 its the smart thing to do, making them impassable just frustrates people when they can got through them and pathing cant figure out how to go around them because they are constantly moving, futher more, this wouldnt make them more useful, they still get smacked around with little to no dmg output, giving them more dmg makes them mean little pack hunters... arches slowing you just gets you killed QUICKLY, and onr archer slows you with their shots, and they shoot quite often alone, can get the demigods to run up and finish you, not to mention their #s they get, say gg slow wars...

Reply #9 Top

Priest slow with their shots already, go check my post

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/323824

Reply #10 Top

From the lua files, re: priest:

Heals every five seconds. Will heal demigods first, unless the demigod's health is maximum. Heals demigods for 10%. Only heals creeps with <50% health. Heals creeps for 200.

Reply #11 Top

Yes, i already started a Thread about this, which gathers all information about such stuff.

 

=> http://forums.demigodthegame.com/323824     :snowman:

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Reaver, reply 8


lol at DotA part...

 its the smart thing to do, making them impassable just frustrates people when they can got through them and pathing cant figure out how to go around them because they are constantly moving, futher more, this wouldnt make them more useful, they still get smacked around with little to no dmg output, giving them more dmg makes them mean little pack hunters... arches slowing you just gets you killed QUICKLY, and onr archer slows you with their shots, and they shoot quite often alone, can get the demigods to run up and finish you, not to mention their #s they get, say gg slow wars...
End of Reaver's quote

 

That's just an exemple. For one thing, Demigods could be split into movement classes. Giants, like The Rook would only be blocked by other giants (including the giant creeps) but would walk over everything else(or maybe they could walk slower when they walk over units). Human sized Demigods would be blocked by normal things, but be able to walk under giants. Flying Demigods would ignore most things, but be more vulnerable(as in take a lot more damage) to Angels and Archers, which would give those creeps a purpose.

There's so many things the creeps could be used for to spice up gameplay, to give it variety than the DotA way of just having creeps that do damage, and having them do more and more damage as the game advances.

Reply #13 Top

Ultimatly the point of creeps should be to present a choice to the player. Does he ignore the creeps and go for the Demigod, and suffer the consequences, or take his time and kill the creep firsts, but risk the Demigod getting away or getting reinforced. Do you blow your nukes to get rid of creeps quick, or try to keep them for the Demigod.

 

As it is right now, the only creeps worth going after are the Healers, Catapults and Giants, and the Giants come out so late in a game they might as well not be there - though this will change when you play against players and not the retarded AI, imo.

Reply #14 Top

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't agree that Minotaurs and Archers both need to do more damage, as they are basically pointless speedbumps. The real dissapointment IMO is the Angels though, who come out AFTER the Catapultsaurs, deal what, 5x less damage (even less than that really, as their strafing attacks end up giving them a very low attack speed), and die virtually right away as they sweep past enemy towers. They need to be buffed very significantly if they are supposed to be anything other than free money, exp, and neat looking eye-candy.

Reply #15 Top

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/323824 There you can check attackspeed, dmg etc. of every creep.

 

But yes, Angles are to weak right now. Minos + Archers should only get more Dmg, so to make them glass cannons. You should still weap em away with a handshake, but if you dont, they at least should be very annoying. Double or tripple the dmg of the little fellows and everything is fine imo.

So long, Aspartem :snowman:

Reply #16 Top

its funny how ANYTHING can be turned into "ZOMG MOAR LEIK DOOOOOTA, NOT GOOOD!!1!1one!1exclimationmark!"

seriously, not everything that would be like DotA is bad, you guys act like its a friggin disease if its like DotA, calm down and actually think of how something can be good, and from DotA...

DotA =/= Demigod, but having things from it that are good still doesnt make it DotA, so remember that jsut trying to make something unique, trying to make it different doesnt always mean good...

oh hey, after thought about first post and my part about the exaggerated DotA part, if anything can be made to be like dota, hell, the creeps in dota you need to go around, thus making your argument of creeps blocking Demigods makes it more like DotA, thus it should not go into the game, by most peoples standards...

Reply #17 Top

Acutally I said creeps in Demigod could be more involved than creeps in DotA that just block and deal damage. Having the damage and blocking be dependent on Demigod size and flight for one this is already much more interactive and interesting. Having some with special abilities to be avoided is another, because abilities keep being dangerous through the game while damage is quickly outscaled.

Reply #18 Top

Btw, Dota creeps do more than just block. They react on attacks against themself, nearby heros or nearby tower. So do towers there.

Its a simple system, but its more than just block + running around.

The creatures in Demi do less - ok exeptions are the priests - yet. but i think they'll improve them sooner or later.

 

So long, Aspartem  :snowman:

Reply #19 Top

I think they'll give the creeps a very thorough sprucing up. Something I'd like to see is reducing catapultasauris hp so they really become glass cannons, something that would be easy for a demigod to kill, but to do so he'd have to wade through a bunch of (buffed a little bit) minotaurs. Make flanking more worthwile, make the catas less dominant in the creep ranks but keep them as nasty damage dealers while making it a bit harder to steamroll minotaurs in one attack.

Reply #20 Top

Nah i find the catas nice. They should be tough.. they come at Warlvl 6-7 so they're ok for me. They only got 400hp thats not that much.

On the other hand, we all often forget, that a big part of demigod is missing. The creeps of the Generals, i think they're going to change alot. Still, i'd say they should buff the dmg of minos + archers but the real pain will be the general creeps.

We'll see :) So long, Aspartem :snowman:

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Aspartem, reply 4
Minotaurs:   4 Xp     8 Gold    200 HP    7 Spawns

- Archers:      4 Xp      17 Gold   150 HP    3 Spawns

- Priests:      15 Xp     66 Gold   400 HP    2 Spawns

- Catas:      15 Xp     165 Gold   400 Hp   2 Spawns

- Angels:     10 Xp    165 Gold   300 Hp   3 Spawns

- Golems:   30 Xp      660 Gold   1.5k Hp   1 Spawn

 Gold is what is important here people so by killing all 7 mini's i get 56 gold thats a lot of creeps to get to all father.

Anyone know how much gold you get for killing other demigods?

These are the other stats of the Creeps i could get

 

Yes, they could make the soldiers + archers at least a bit more important. Up the damage to 20-30each (since their a pack of seven you'll notice if you stand in a grp) to make them more to glasscannons. They still shall die in seconds, but atleast should be an annoyance if you dont kill them.. right now, their just "there", money with legs.

Priests do percentage heal, yes. But i dont know how much. If you say they heal themself for ~200Hp and they got 400 it would mean they heal 50% which could be, since they healed me a few times and i thought it was pretty much. They shouldnt do more dmg, they are fine imo. Catapults are really good, but you can dodge their missiles since its a ground attack. Plus, i dont like the fact, that they outrange the towers but well, thats just me.

Angles are pretty usless right now.. And Golems are only good for squishing the little Soldiers, they walk too slow, swing too slow - just are too slow. Yeah, they swing you for good 400dmg splashed - if the opponent gets the War Idol it gets nasty with these guys. And 1.5k Hp is a nice number for only a "creep". +they're walking Goldmines which i like to focus fire fast^^

Imo, Soldiers, Archers, Angels and Tower should get a buff. The rest is fine. But we can wait, till we see the General creeps etc.

So long,

Aspartem

End of Aspartem's quote

Reply #22 Top

I feel that the creeps should increase in power over time. And not just by getting higher tier creeps but also by boosting the lower tiers. As said, the lower tiers are almost trivial at Demigod lvl 1, let alone lvl 20+.

This does seem like a good task for General demigods though, boosting minions through various skills so that they can put up a better fight. The support circle as I see it is as follows:

Demigod Assassins support Demigod Generals (Generals will be weaker then assasins so they need to be protected from enemy assassins and creeps, this kind of support could also extend by taking critical flags near the frontlines that in turn grant some bonus for generals to use).

Demigod Generals support Creeps (They do all the stuff that can make creeps stronger)

Creeps support Demigod Assassins (As meat shields, extra dmg, support spells (like healing) etc.).

This isn't a locked circle of course of what everyone can do. More on what the primary focus should be imho.