Hence the right (or even duty) of Blizzard to ban/punish (in a virtual way) anyone using it.



Well, that's a bit of a stretch. I agree that it affects their game-play, but injury......

The only way I can think of this as a legal case would be if Blizzard would have to implement costly counter-measures to detect the people using the helper-program. In that case, Blizzard has (in my opinion) every right to try and instigate a civil-lawsuit in order to get back some of their money.

Even then, I don't think it should be more than a civil case.

That's quite different, though. The ratings are attached to products before they ever go on sale. They govern only the where and how a product can be sold and apply only to the distributor, not the developer (it just so happens that Blizzard is both) and not the enforcement of the developer policies.

The EULA is an agreement that basically specifies how a user is allowed to use the software for which he purchased the license for, and what the provider of the service can do if the agreement is broken.

Also, from a little bit of google digging, it appears that German law applies mostly to the "criminal" side of the fense, meaning Blizzard would not be able to charge someone with breaking a law for violating the EULA, but it can still police the user's account/file civil suits based on its policy.

Well I think kryo's title Game Cheats Are Illegal? does indicate the matter. I also believe the only possible injured party in this are the customers who bought this developer's software but, only if they were mislead in purchasing it in some material way.

I think Blizzard was even surprised by the verdict on this one. Should be interesting how it all sorts out legally. Plenty of courts have made poor decisions. I'm thinking that that's what this one is a poor decision.

My thoughts on this.

The subject seems to say and usuallly we accept Cheats = Illegal.

I don't play game one, so I'm really upset that this had to find it's way into the courts and a judge was needed to make a decision. Yes, I understand it's not just about a game, I get that.

Justs seem a waste of the system that is over burdened enough with handling and settling real problems.

I'm sure that I am not seeing the big picture here, but just can't get it out of my mind that this centers around people playing games. I guess life has just past me by in the fast lane.   

No i dont. they wont just go around and ban ppl for no reason. they want to make money so if you get your acces terminated its very likely you cheated in one or the other way.
They WANT to make profit. so they will not cut themself a leg off by banning paying customers.
They put this in the eula for a reason, but not to discriminate anyone.
It may sound immoral or something. But such does killing any living beings...for food. the first is necessary to fight cheaters and run a mmorpg.



Warden is an anti cheat program. it does not have anthing to do with DRM. it just checks your game if it was manipulated by hacks. thats why it is mentioned in the screenshot of the bot program "exit on mid-game warden update".


I find anything that fights bot users and cheaters welcome. (in a competive multiplayer game)
Also its not about the botters, its about a bot program which even got sold for $.

I'll try it this way Bodyless. Generally, such provisions are considered one-sided and are made solely to cover the tails of the maker of the provision, Blizzard in this instance. Blizzard has this language not so much to eliminate cheaters but, to cover themselves in the event they should terminate someone's access to the service without cause. Which is exactly what this language allows them to do.

Let's face it arguments can develop, people's feelings can get hurt and senseless fights can develop and sometimes innocent parties get blamed. Blizzard is, in my opinion, just looking for a way to legally tell those they've banned "we don't need a reason" and they've probably relied on it.

So, if you get my point that I don't like being on the receiving end of such agreements and that such provisions are enough to steer me away from such games then ok. Your first response to what I had earlier posted didn't convey that to me though.

Yeah, I found that out too late. It still was Blizzards argument. And you're right, it has nothing to with DRM, that's why their way of trying to use the DMCA was denied.

Well Kona, it's nice to see that in your absence you have not lost your ability to contribute absolutely nothing to a conversation.

I'll second that. The modern quest for ever expanding achievement ego's in many of these "win at any costs" clowns took over common sense long ago. Freud would have had a field day

Cive 'em a good whipping in the Stocks *hurrrrumph*

Regards
Zy

BigDogBigFeet ...you are on the wrong page with that one.

The 'injured party' includes all people affected by the program and by the people using the program...and that includes the majority of WoW players at a disadvantage by NOT themselves using the program but instead following the guidelines/intent of the game itself.

When a 'cheat' adopted by one online player affects the outcome and gameplay experience of another it is the OTHER person who suffers 'injury'.

If the program is found to be unlawful to sell/distribute it's customers can also be seen to be disadvantaged through financial loss...and make a claim for restitution....but that has absolutely nothing to do with their use's effect on the other players....a far wider impact that is plainly unfair and imbalanced.

It's on the BBC too !

.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7509182.stm

This is like ruling that WinAmp is illegal because it lets me copy pirated MP3s into RAM and then play them.  I guess that means the iPod is too.  So is any debugger that I could attach to the WoW process.

If there's any proof that the government is out of touch with technology, this has to be it.

Jafo I'm not interested in this. I expressed my opinion quit with BigDogBigFeet already.

There's no suffering of any legally recognized injury to someone losing because of another party cheating in what is little more than a game. Furthermore, for me to make the effort to recognize that a party has to have a legally recognized cause of action including legally recognized damages to bring a suit added to the discussion.

I also gave a good legal arguement when I indicated Blizzard had chosen it's own remedy for such problems in its own service agreement which they wrote.

My opinion isn't some wrong page for you to BigDogBigFeet me about.

I will try to illustrate further what I've been saying. A person can buy a radar detector. People buy radar detectors to avoid speed traps here in the US. They don't serve any other useful purpose. How well they work I wouldn't know.

Various organizations have tried to ban the sale of such items. Afterall, they enable culprits to "cheat" police out of speeding ticket collars. Their lawsuits have failed. It's up to the individual who purchases the item to obey the law is the legal defense of the manufacturers.

People can buy guns. People use guns for all sorts of illicit purposes. Yet, the maufacture, possession and sales of guns can not be banned by any state or other local jurisdiction due to our constitution. A recent Supreme Court ruling in this matter seems to stipulate this.

However, I did recognize that a genuine injured party in this matter might be the people who purchased this developer's product, if they were misled resulting in the real legal injury of losing their service with Blizzard.

As I understand our legal system, Blizzard can not claim they are injured by this product. And, that such injury is a result of this developer's negligence or criminal conduct.

Just my opinion regarding the topic of this thread which isn't BigDogBigFeet.

All of those examples can have completely legitimate uses. This program existed expressedly for the purpose of breaking the WoW EULA.



Theoretically, they were allowed in the early days of traffic radar to allow drivers to know they were under surveilance. They are illegal in some circumstances. Radar jammers on the other hand, are illegal not because they interfere with law inforcement, but they allow the user to broadcast on an FCC-regulated frequency without proper liscencing. That's total BS, but it's the law we have to live with.

Guns are another matter entirely. They have multiple purposes other than breaking the law, so they don't even belong in this conversation.



Completely untrue. The site selling this program specifically and explicitly states that using it is a violation of the EULA and may get the user banned. Users of the bot have no legal standing to complain about either Blizzard or the bot's programmer.



Sure they can. The programmer is making a profit using their IP without their permission in direct violation of their copyright. Theoretically, they can sue for every penny the guy made from this, and tack on punative damages.



Please tell me what I must smoke for this sentence to make sense :NOTSURE:

Ditto.

It appears it's not appropriate to refer to someone by 'name' when actually responding to them.

WIllythemailboy got it right....totally, succinctly and precisely in #65.

Oh poo...I refered to someone by name....;)

Come on this is not breaking coyright or a law.  Blizzard is just going way overboard.  If they don't like what a user is doing on their servers ban them then move on.  Anything else is just petty.

As for people losing the enjoyment of there game, give me a break, I would bet that none of the users on WOW even knew it was happening let alone affected them.  Second what stops me from sueing Blizzard because I start at a disadvantage in WOW if I start now versus someone that has been playing for over a year and kicks my ass!  That sure as hell ruins my enjoyment.

This is just one more example of Copyright law out of control.  Not to mention people seem to think they have some strange belief they have the right to go through life without being disappointed or offended.  Suck it up and move on.

Blizzard not having a case to answer.  More fool you for not getting into the game from the outset...and thus be on a level playing field.

People using the bot are playing 'catch-up' in a way not intended by Blizzard...so Blizzard rightly removes them, but having this bloke continuing to make the bot available means that either Blizzard is obliged to continue also removing people...or better still simply have the availability removed.

No individual outside of Blizzard has the right to alter the game-play of their product.  That 'right' is Blizzard's alone.

Blizzard not having a case to answer. More fool you for not getting into the game from the outset...and thus be on a level playing field.

End of quote

Uh yeah I know I was just making an absurd example.  Kind of like the absurdity of this one.

Yep and and Blizzard has every right to keep banning people if they are dumb enough to keep buying the bot.  To use the radar detector example no one can sue the manufacturer for people using their device to do something illegal no matter how much it ruins someone elses driving pleasure (even to the point of anothers death).

As for altering the game play hmmm not sure about that as I am not aware 100% how the bot works, but if it only plays the game for you as some have said there is no game play altering, automating commands is not altering game play, however as I said I don't know exactly how it works.

I;m a total call of duty 4 addict, and while It's not an mmo, tempers can definitely be provoked simply by loosing. (on of the disadvantages of voice chat) now imagine how thoroughly annoyed I'd be if someone started utterly destroying me and the rest of my team because they were cheating (or more accurately they leveled up by cheating and got all the good weapons.) that hurts me, the one who just purchased a $60 game, and the company that made it, because I'm going to tell my friends it's no fun to play online because of all the cheating (long string of highly inappropriate words) losers online. they then don't buy the game because they trust me and I just told them it sucks. now that one player's cheating has just cost that company several potential purchases( several hundred dollars). now let's say everyone else in that game tells their friends the same thing. now it has cost the developer several thousand dollars. now if someone makes a way for people to cheat and sells it, now many people are ruining many more people's experience over many games, potentially costing the developer a huge number of sales.

thus by that logic, blizzard should sue the programmer of such a bot for every penny he's worth

oh yah, and thumbs up to post 65; really, what would one have to smoke?

It's interesting...on several levels how some people 'get' the issue and others do not.

commando000 in #70 gets it quite well....;)

The frustrating thing is the bot creator is likely not 'worth' what Blizzard could show as 'loss' so ultimately Blizzard still loses.

Perhaps neutering could be an option....;)

Stick it.

I'm not a fan of the practices some companies employ to protect their revenue streams, nor I am I a fan of the mega online games. That doesnt mean to say the world has to follow me in that view. I vote with my feet and dont buy the products, or play the game. End of story, to go further is vindictiveness in the extreme. So would be using amateur quasi-legal smoke screens to justify my personal opinions.

In my view the ruling seems a litte esoteric to say the least, I do however applaud the direction it moves in. Whatever rationale anyone wishes to use in rebuttal of the ruling, the inarguable tenant that two wrongs dont make a right applies. If something is wrong, tackle it, whether or not something else is equally wrong, or equally "silly" is hardly the issue. Being wholely negative about every issue along the lines of "oh well, what about ..... *snif* " etc, never solved a dam thing, apart from getting a self-rightuous good nights sleep.

The facts behind this are simple enough, the bot wrecks the game for others trying to play it. If it was a single player game that no-one else was affected by it, frankly I could care less, if people want to "cheat" on single player games - help yourself, it hurts no one else, equally the only person you fool is yourself. This one isnt remotely near that single player scenario.

- It wrecks the enjoyment of others playing the game who have paid their legitimate fees - thats wrong, period.

- It is a blatent use of a program to make cash, none of this "Knights on white horses riding through the sky hitting back against the nasty corporate" drivil. If he donated all to charity, I might at least believe his motives, but even then, sure as hell not his methods.

- Blizzard invests shed loads of money in this stuff, if the game gets a reputation for being unfair, or the players efforts subverted, they will lose serious revenue in the long run - why the hell should anyone buy a licence to play if lunatics like this guy are given free reign. I wouldnt buy a licence in the first place, I sure as hell would have no incentive to change my mind if nutters like this guy are not stopped.

Are there are other things wrong with life or the Planet in general? Sure there are, and we are not going to solve them all today or all at the same time. Does this activity give a problem in the legal aspects, I suspect it does, otherwise the Judge would not have done what he did.

We all know this bot is wrong. We should be investing our time trying to support the Legal system fight these lunatics, and backing the Judge in his efforts to stop what we all know is wrong. We should not be wasting our time, trying to twist this into every other bandwagon under the Sun, nor yelling "ah hahhh what about [latest legal smoke screen] ..."

In short, common sense - a fast receding quality in many areas of life - should prevail. I also wish life were simpler, perfect, utopian, and we could solve all life's evils in one go, but thats never going to happen not in this or any other lifetime.

Regards
Zy

I support blizzard for doing this. MMORPG's have economies after all. Even if they are virtual. It is basically on the same level as making counterfeit money in RL.

CR violation is a little confusing, but its the judges call. If the cheater feels that it is not a fair ruling, there is always the appeals route.

Thats just sick and makes me glad I dont live in the USA.   Course, chances are fucked up judges elsewhere in the west could have ruled the same.

As long as you pay for the subscription fee and dont disrupt the service I say you could do anything you want to inside the WoW gameworld, although engaging into PvP with a speed hack/teleportation hack would obviously be something I would'nt condone.