TheBigOne TheBigOne

We need Randomness!

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We need Randomness!

from Stardock Forums

Random Heroes, Random Maps, Random Teams, Random Rules, Random everything.

You may ask "why?" now, here is the totally random answer : it's fun , see below.

 

We need an incentive to use Random Heroes , be it just that the opponent doesnt know what hero you have (like in Starcraft/Warcraft with the Races) or that you get a small bonus like a bit extra money as in Dota or even just special awards for playing random (which supcom failed to have).

Whats so cool about Random Heroes?

Random Heroes make for a more flexible and dynamic gameplay on the one side on the other side, people using random will whine alot less over pretended imbalances as they have a more unbiased point of view (won't stop them to complain about the real ones though - they will become more apparent even that way). 

Now the Problem is that humans are lazy per definition and usually will stick to what they know and have mastered but humans are also opportunists who will happily take every small, even meaningless advantages/rewards. (ofc the higher the advantage the more humans will take the advantage over their lazyness).

Whats so cool about Random Maps ?

Random Maps can have 2 meanings:

1) Randomly generated Maps, like in all those Age of *someword* games. While not that suited for competitive game it increases the replayability alot and forces the players to adapt alot more. While I am totally sure that Demigod won't have a random map generator, given the nature of Demigod Maps being flat, not using tiles and probably not that complex at all (aside from the artistical stuff) it should be fairly easy to write a random map generator (like Warmaker for Warcraft II) and maybe even integrate it into the game itself as mod.

2) meaning that instead of picking a certain map in the game lobby you have some filters (size, type, maybe even a list) you can apply and the game is played on a randomly picked map which pass those filters. This will lead to a bigger variability in  custom games (even if only some use it) - Automatch will pick a random map anyways I guess.

 

Whats so cool about Random Teams?

I always liked the concept of the RT ladder in WC3 as you needed adapt alot how to play depending on your ally and got to play together with players you normally would play (because they are either too good or too bad). And if you lose you can always say it's been the fault of the ally - with an fixed Team this causes controversies, I tried it often enough.

I'd like to have a random team option in custom games as well, you could argue that the nature of custom games itself results in being teamed up with random guys, but that is only true if you play "public customs". Would be cool to play a custom with friends and mix the teams up randomly without much effort (and even in Publics there is a tendency people will try to get on the team with the best player - especially the host as he has all the power^^).

 

Whats so cool about Random Rules?

If Demigod features different game modes (like the dota game modes or things like capture the flag, King of the Olymp or Free for all) I would totally like to have a button which says "random game mode". Different game modes are fun and if you have a random button nobody can argue which mode to pick in the game lobby.

Whats so cool about Random Everything?

if I tell , you will randomly forget to breath and thats something I don't want to happen.

 

I have no clue if that is a proper blog article , never written one before.

TheAurelOne

 

 

 

demigod thebigone blog random
40,486 views 63 replies
Reply #26 from Demigod Forums Top
I'm going to have to whole-heartedly agree with TBO on this. Randomness is an essential piece of the game when it comes to dynamics. Not to mention it keeps it fresh-feeling. Never a dull moment when you've opted to wage war with what you're dealt.
Reply #27 from Demigod Forums Top
ACk I wish i had jumped in sooner.
But I whole-heartiedly agree.
This is a large part of what made Diablo2 fun and very replayable, for starters!
However I DONT agree with random maps. I like the premade ones.


Randomness adds A LOT more replay value to things.
What if each game the amount of units traveling on each lane where in different amounts, and different types?

If they where all minotaurs, all the same amount every time.. Well then someone could just use the demigod that is best at killing them quickly and getting the most exp and leveling faster, no?
But the demigod that does that might be weaker if there where half ranged, half minotaurs, adn the ranged guys spread out, yada yada.
Or someone might always go to one lane that is more populated. But if the lanes vary +/- 25-50% or something someone wouldn't know where to go first.
Maybe random towers as well.
But both sides even, of course, not different randoms for either side.
That should be the default.. the way the game is designed, not an option. This would add randomness to the maps without random maps themselves.


And with Random teams, I agree too.
Stacked teams ARE NOT fun. They aren't fun for me on the winning side, there is no challenge. It isn't fun on the side against the stack.
Stacking is only fun for lamers.
There should be a way to play with your friends of course.. But there should be something done about stacking still, like matching you up against an equal team of friends.

And giving a bonus to people for choosing a random demigod would be good, yeah(like start at level 2, start with a random low level item, or start with more currency), and an option when starting a game to force-random.
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #28 from Demigod Forums Top
Randomizing the creeps could be bad, since then the game could be too much luck if you happen to have the Demigod that is best in that particular situation. It could work though.

Options to make things random are usually good.
Reply #29 from Demigod Forums Top
First of all personally I'd prefer between 40-50 demigods, and of course post-release packs. And randomness defiantly has its value perhaps neutral shops/barracks have random choices of items/units available? to add a new one.

Also, on the point of abilities being repetative, I bet I could give you a list of 500(100 5 ability guys/50 10 ability guys) diffrent abilities applying to a game like demigod (from other games not ones I made up myself, I'm not that bored) And just cause abilities are similar doesn't mean that they become boring cause they are on 2 or 3 diffrent units, take for example DotA: pudge, clockwerk, and storm lord(? the storm panda) all three have a grapple like ability, and all three play differently, and use the spell differently for diffrent tactical reasons. Also remember that half (supposedly) of the demigods will be generals something unlike most DotA characters even begin to do (most would be "blurring the lines").

And finally about random heroes, I would barely be able to live without, when I play DotA I can almost NEVER play AP because I get bored of everything I've already played a couple times, so I play AR because no matter what I'll play (and if it is one of the 2 heroes I dislike strongly I'll -repick), also this brings up the point, adding a repick option could be useful for random, (especially choosing to go random in a game where you can pick) perhaps reducing the bonus you get for choosing random when repicking could offset?
Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top
Randomizing the creeps could be bad, since then the game could be too much luck if you happen to have the Demigod that is best in that particular situation. It could work though.Options to make things random are usually good.

Which is sort of the point..
Presumably some demigods will have some minor RPS against each other. Like one demigod might have a slight advantage in a 1vs1 fight against another type, and disadvantages against others.

The random creeps could even that out, or make an even greater disparity.
And in such a case your team would want to gang up on such a person and keep them away from the lane that would benefit them the most, forcing them to a lane where they won't level as fast.


And in reply to the above.. 100 demigods would be silly. That'd be an utter waste of time for the artists to make all of those, and they'd all end up rehashes of one another to save time with coding and balancing them all.
I'd really hope for 12-18 demigods. That'd offer plenty of variety.
I'm betting we'll probably get 6-12.. but i'll still have fun as long as more come within 3-6 months.. After a year of no more demigods i'd probably forget about keeping up with the game. :/ I'm already forgetting about sins of a solar empire and it's 1.1 patch that's supposed to be coming since it's been taking so long..
Reply #31 from Demigod Forums Top
innociv I think we can be pretty sure there will be at least 10 Demigods more likely something from 15 to 25. would be silly if you have to have one or more demigods in twice in a 5vs5 (and you don't really think they already revealed every Demigod they have, that would be like thinking there are only the 4 Different maps which were shown already.
Reply #32 from Demigod Forums Top
true but scathis did say it takes a very long time just to do the model, textures, particle effects, animations, and code for each demigod.
Like a month.. and they where just starting to add art for some i think.

I'd like more than 12 but i'm not that optimistic especially when GPG hasn't said anything :P

Would be really nice if they actually told us :P

Currently it's at 4 that we know of isn't it?
The Druid lady..
Torchbearer..
Rook..
Unclean Beast..
Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top
Don't forget Regulus, and possibly the fat guy...
Reply #34 from Demigod Forums Top
and Oak
Reply #35 from Demigod Forums Top
Which is sort of the point..Presumably some demigods will have some minor RPS against each other. Like one demigod might have a slight advantage in a 1vs1 fight against another type, and disadvantages against others.The random creeps could even that out, or make an even greater disparity.And in such a case your team would want to gang up on such a person and keep them away from the lane that would benefit them the most, forcing them to a lane where they won't level as fast


But in 1v1s it could end up being "whoever is most compatible with that particular set of creeps, wins"... hopefully that won't happen, but it is still possible. Minor variation would be good but not so much that one Demigod gets much of an advantage.
Reply #36 from Demigod Forums Top
innociv I think we can be pretty sure there will be at least 10 Demigods more likely something from 15 to 25. would be silly if you have to have one or more demigods in twice in a 5vs5 (and you don't really think they already revealed every Demigod they have, that would be like thinking there are only the 4 Different maps which were shown already.


Agreed. In my head I see 5v5 as the goal. I don't believe you should have duplicate demigods in the same match, particularly in Single Player and Persistent MP. This would mean 10 heroes minimum. 20 would be nice.

For beta, all bets are off. First beta, it may be that we are going to play with only 5 to 10 Demi's initially with that # increasing as the betas are released. In fact, though no one will confirm or deny this, I suspect the main thing pushing back the beta is getting enough Demi's modeled, animated, and some semblance of balance between them. The engine, creeps, maps, and general gameplay is in place all that lacks is introducing more demi's to populate them.
Reply #37 from Demigod Forums Top
I never said have 100 demigods that would be way to many, I was just using that as an argument against the number of abilities being a limiting factor on having more demigods.

Personally, I would like between 40-50, and when you think about it they've allready released how many assasins? 5? which means there is technically about 10? (assuming there is an equal number of generals and assasins done at one time, which assuming they need to test generals wouldn't be too bad a guess) and the games not coming out for another 6 months? meaning since they have a lot of the buildings and basic units done they can focus more on demigods.

And also when you look at 40 demigods rember 20 are "generals" and 20 are "assasins". So 20 or 15 demigods is only about 10-7 assasins and 10-7 generals. And like I pointed out, they probably allready have 10.
Reply #38 from Demigod Forums Top
In a game like this, a "Random" map would not be balanced unless it was symmetrical. Even then, balance might be an issue.
Reply #39 from Demigod Forums Top
yes but making a random map symmetrically isn't that hard and it surely hasn't the goal to replace premade maps, neither in gameplay nor in art - but it could be a nice addition. If we get a nicely documented map file description it isn't that hard to do.
Reply #40 from Demigod Forums Top
I totally agree with TBO, because randomness definitely increases fun and diversity, which any game requires.
Reply #41 from Demigod Forums Top
If they can't have truly random maps, what about the option to pick a map at random? You can add and remove certain maps to the pool from which the game picks.
Reply #42 from Demigod Forums Top
thats an excellent Idea AZ.

edit: just notice I wrote that myself already weeks ago :P
Reply #43 from Demigod Forums Top
Random can be good, as long as it doesnt end up as 'whoever gets lucky with the random diceroll wins'
Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top
Random maps would be possible. But only with some restrictions.

I can imagine you are able to selecet some key points. As the graphical style (for instance those waterfalls we see on some screenshots or the lava we see in the trailer), the size of the map and maybe how much struts (don´t know if this is the right word, sorry) the paths will have.
I don´t think there will be much more values you can change.
Reply #45 from Demigod Forums Top
But in 1v1s it could end up being "whoever is most compatible with that particular set of creeps, wins"... hopefully that won't happen, but it is still possible. Minor variation would be good but not so much that one Demigod gets much of an advantage.


Ehh.. but you don't KNOW what demigod to pick. You don't know how the creep lanes are going to be.

Wouldn't there be an advantage anyways based off what Demigod you pick ANYWAYS?..
This could tip the balanced OUT OF THE FAVOR of people who would pick the Demigod that tends to be best in 1vs1's!

Presumably some demigods will be better at crowd control, killing buildings, heal/buffs, defending, while the 1vs1 demigods you'd probably go with what ones do the most DPS.

That Demigod that does the most DPS might be a bad choice depending on how the random creeps turn out!



And it's a much better solution than completely random maps, imo.
Reply #46 from Demigod Forums Top
But all the Demigods should be balanced for 1v1 :D

The point is that the outcome of the match could be entirely luck based. I was lucky enough to pick the better Demigod for this creep configuration, you weren't, I win. If the randomness of the creeps is kept to be pretty slight, it could probably work, but if some games have 3 times as many catapaultasarauses, it could be bad.
Reply #48 from Demigod Forums Top
If they all have the exact same strengths and weaknesses then what is the point of having more than one of them?..

And demigod is more than just fighting people 1vs1. And presumably it's more than ordering your demigod(and your units if you have any) to attack the other persons demigod, and one will die and one will live with 1 hit left, or them killing each other simutaniously..

Theres creeps, there's towers, yada yada.

Your idea of what makes balance sounds very shallow.
Reply #49 from Demigod Forums Top
lol I still play DotA, there should be a -dmar too!

edit: Basically it's Deathmatch All Random for those who don't know. Deathmatch is when you die, you lose that hero and get assigned another one that is left, but you keep all the items and gold.
Reply #50 from Demigod Forums Top
Only funny, if there is a larger number of demigods than only 10.