so... just doing the math on the excel charts, let's take advent for example:

advent seeker vessels cost $200. Illuminators cost $380 + 60 + 55 = minimum $600-700 cost in terms of pure cash. So a 3-1 ratio is a reasonable conservative comparison.

fleet supply = 2 for seekers, 6 for illuminators

Seeker's do 3 X 2 = 6 DPS to illmunators, while illuminators do 18 X 1 = 18, so evenly matched on total damage.

Each seeker has 400 hull, 425 shields, so 3x that is 1200 hull, 1275 shields.

each illuminator has 620 hull, 550 shields, a huge comparative weakness.

So that's a pretty good counter. and it's much stronger vis-a-vis assailants, which do not have the illumanitor's 18 attack.

Now one counter to my argument is that defense vessels in particular crush scouts. so one would need basic assault or heavy cruisers to take out large quantities of defense vessels. but that gets into builds and counter builds and so i won't go on, but having reached that point of the argument is the point -- that this would seem to be a counter. That this unit is available from the first minute, that it produces very quickly, and moves to the front very quickly.

Eumaies it looks ok on paper, but it fails in practice because scouts suck vs too many other types of frigates and they cant scratch capital ships. Seeker dps is more than 3, because it is round down on display.

Fair enough, LRM's are much more versatile, it's true. they would work as a counter only if taking out the LRM's was in and of itself going to be a big victory. because after they're gone the remaining scouts don't allow you to press the attack.

LRM's, to me, seem to only be the indestructable force that everyone makes them out to be early game, by mid game (on anything larger than a six planet map), they've lost effectivness, what with carriers (which, admittedly, need to be a little cheaper), and heavy cruisers (granted, with TEC, kodiaks are at 5 mil labs), I dunno, maybe I haven't played enough, but it seems that if you slowed them down a bit they'd be right where they should. In response to Helio, that'd be a good idea, I never use Marza's (have a few siege frigates trailing till I've almost wiped out or routed the enemy), so that might be a good incentive to diversify.

Yes they're only a problem early to mid game on small to medium maps. The problem with that is that every game is on small or medium map, and there is no late game when he starts massing illums.

I just had a match against an LRM spammer, i defeated him by spamming fighters and bombers from light carriers, while having a few heavy ships for him to concentrate firing upon... so, it can be done

though my economy was almost twice his!

That's sounds like he was pretty dumb there Problem is that Tec fighters suck pretty bad, advent fighters can counter long range pretty good. I wouldn't use Vasari, because you might as well get assailants at tier 1!