Since I was forced to create an account to download the bugfix...

Why oh why can I not have the tech tree print-out?

from Sins Forums
Since I was forced to create an account in order to download the bugfix (and WTF is up with THAT?), I guess I'll use my first (and probably only) post to bitch.

I understand that only Collector's Edition purchasers get to receive a printed copy of the tech tree.  That, in a word, is stupid.  This game already has no single player campaign, and no way to get new players like myself up to speed easily.  The tutorials are there, don't get me wrong, but there's a big difference between a real gameplay tutorial that introduces you to gameplay elements and a overview of features.  The combat tutorial in Sins is a true tutorial.  It shows you how to play one element of the game, step-by-step, in context.  The other three "tutorials" are overviews of features, with no real help in how to use those features in context in an actual game.  The fact that the first game you play in this game is in a system with 14 planets, just makes the learning curve of this game incredibly steep.  The fact that you have to do this while learning everything about this game at once without printed references to work from as you do so makes it needlessly steep.

I understand that Stardock isn't a large developer, and didn't have the time or the resources to include a decent full tutorial, or a single player campaign, or a full manual with their game.  That's fine, and I'm OK with that.  But including elements that should be free for all Sins players with CE editions only for a game with such a steep learning curve is not only stupid but counter-productive.  At the very least, the PDF of that tech tree poster should be available for download to everyone so we can print our own.  It costs Stardock nothing to do this, particularly since at this point, the retail edition of the game is available for sale at half the price it is on this website.

C'mon, Stardock, let's get that tech tree PDF into the downloads section.  Collector's Editions are for behind-the-scenes stuff, NOT stuff that should have been included with every copy of the game.

P.S. I assume I'm required to register in order to download the bugfix in order to defeat software pirates... but what's to stop the bugfix from being on the torrent right next to the ISO of the CD?  I'm confused.  -J
10,488 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Defeating the pirates is impossible, so they don't try. Sort of like you'll never achieve flight by flapping your arms so you shouldn't bother trying in the first place, except more difficult. There is no intelligent way to combat piracy, thus intelligence is to not.

As to your problem, I'm a little lost on this. Pray tell, how would the tech tree poster help you learn the game? You can immediately view the entire tech tree on starting a game, with descriptions that are not on the poster. If you need to look at it for a while, there is a magic pause button to stop time for you. I honestly never even looked at the thing, it's a gimmick, not something useful.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Presumably, you have a favorite build/research order. How did you discover it? Trial and error? From what I can see, a game of Sins will take hours. I don't have hours to try various combinations and permutations.

I'm just having a very difficult time managing three different research trees simultaneously without some kind of reference. I find it hard to believe I'm not the only one...
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Do you mean the tech tree as in resarchable techs or the tech tree as in the unit and building tree?
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
...
I dont really see what the problem is here.

As stated before, you can see the whole tree and any time, and you can pause the game, or slow it down, or speed it up.

There really isn't a need for a printed tree.

As for having to manage 3 trees simultaneously, since that could mean a couple of things let me go through this:

1) you mean the tech trees of three races. Answer: You don't need to, you only need to know the tech tree of the race you are playing.

2) you mean the individual race's tech trees. Answer: there are actually 6 trees (economic and military both have 3 subtrees) 8 if you count logistics. No matter how you count it, each of them is completely visible to you at any time in the game. Not only that but all you have to do is mouse over each button to see what each research option does, and the order in which you must download them is very obvious, being denoted by a line going from the prereq. to the desired option.

so...yeah... its super easy to keep track of.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah there must be something that I'm not getting because the tech tree isn't very hard to keep track of at all... the whole entire tree(s) pops up on the screen when you hit the research button... and gives you explanations of each researchable thing when you roll the mouse over it... and it's not really something that you have to think hours about when deciding to research something.

So yeah... lol I dunno
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
I think your expectations of having a printed tree are not unreasonable because most games provide it, but inferring that it makes the game harder is not something that I can agree with because it's your own preferred "style" of play to look at a separate piece of paper, not everyone's.

Sins single-player has an elegant pause feature that allows you to look over everything at your leisure. Hit the pause key and mouse over every research item and you'll get the same info as a poster would normally provide.

-- Retro
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Some of you are missing the point.

I can manage multiple tech trees. For instance, I played a lot of Homeworld: Cataclysm multi. That game has four tech trees.

I can also manage units with multiple researchable upgrades. Starcraft is all about that.

And both Cataclysm and Starcraft have unit caps that you had to do building to increase. That's also no problem to manage.

Finally, I can manage tech trees with multiple overlapping dependencies. Civ4 is famous for you having to research things in multiple threads to make some final tech work.

But Sins has all four of these, at once! This would be outstanding if there was something to put all of these research and build options into context, but there isn't. The tutorials are useless for putting all this stuff into context. A single player campaign, even a short one, would do this easily ("This system has no pirates." "This system's star puts out radiation that blocks cultural transmissions; no broadcast centers may be built and culture will not be a factor." "This system's star puts out harsh radiation which will quickly destroy any ship with less than 4 armor. No frigates or fighter squadrons may be built."), except this game doesn't have a single player campaign.

So I'm struggling with trial and error, wasting a lot of time trying to figure out how all this stuff interacts in a real game. I've had to abort two decent starts because I ran up against some limitation that I didn't know I was supposed to be correcting as I was playing. That isn't fun, that's frustrating.

I'm not a Stardock fanboy. I'm just a guy that likes RTS games.

Stardock should be doing everything in their power to flatten the learning curve for people like me, and they're not. In that direction is a niche game that's never going to achieve a truly broad audience.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I have been playing RTS since Dune 2 and i dont find Sins is a hard RTS to begin with.

The tech trees are straight forward.Play a game,then,finish it and read the tech tree.It's not like asking you memorise the whole book or something.Look at the tech tree and think what you gonna try on the next game.Maybe you gonna build Kodiaks,or gonna try a Novalith cannon.

If not,try to understand one race's research tech tree because the research tech tree is mostly the same for the other 2 race.

This game is considered to be one of the easiest to play for me.It's not like Homeworld's confusing 3D directions,or DoW intense gameplay.This game is slow and you got plenty of time to read the tech trees.

I still find myself looking at the tech tree from time to time.You can play Civs,i really doubt that you cant play the shallow and real time version of Civ.

it maybe difficult at first but once you get it,this game is easy.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
hmm, well that seems a little different.

I dont really think that the tech tree that was printed for those people is really something that deals with all of that, I think its just the research tree printed up all nice on paper.

As for your difficulties, while I can sympathize with having to deal with all 4 tech trees at once, I must say I think you are making this harder on yourself than you need to.

An easy way to limit what you have to know off the top of your head is to only deal with one thing at a time.
Usually when I start a new game, I only focus on one type of research until I have a sizable domain with enough resources to branch out into different areas.
as for star radiation, I dont believe there is any, and you should find out rather quickly whether or not there are pirates.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
why dont you just cry some more because you had to create an account. its free, who cares.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Hehehehe I too don't really understand. I started in BETA, and the tech tree back then was a lot more confusing than it is now believe me! Generally you can win without researching ANY tech, it is possible on most maps. Hell even possible on all maps if you get the right artifacts! But overall you want at least some basic techs like colonization techs (tier 2 in civil) and LRMs (Tier 2 military for TEC). And if you are fighting AI Kodiaks won't hurt.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
It is possible to defeat the pirates but only as TEC. Three novalith shots in quick succession should do it.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Actually, Ironclad wrote the game.

There are dozens of threads containing strategy written and disected to an exhaustive detail, with changes as new versions come out. I suggest you read those threads before you complain about not having time to work out a strategy. Most of those posters have no life (I include myself there), so there are thousands and thousands of hours of experience there that YOU do not have to get the hard way. Plus, the devs get involved in the threads and changes are made to the game reflecting those discussions.

Don't try to take on the pirate bases until you have made your way up the tech tree and have a large fleet. The cost/benefit to taking out the base isn't really there, the raids can be handled by overbidding or adding defenses to your pirate base-facing worlds. But, there again, that can be gleaned from the forums. Watch what the AI's do, they NOW ignore the base until late in the game, if at all.

re: the poster, I have the poster, it's pretty and I have it over my desk. But I have never refered to it after the first time. Plus, if a change is made to the game that affects the tech tree, what do you do? Pen and ink change to the poster? Games in general, and this game especially, evolve from player input and the era of printed goodies is pretty much at an end, aside from the cost of shipping (which was a factor in the price of the game).


Now I'll go lurk again.

pek