Harkov's Laundry List of Nub Questions

from Sins Forums
Well there are some things that puzzle me and I don't know where else to ask, so here they are:

1. Phase Missiles and Shield Mitigation: People seem to think that the Vasari phase missile upgrades are really spectacular. They don't increase the damage directly, but in bypassing the shields, I gather that the phase missiles must avoid the shield mitigation penalty, and that is the (only) reason that the phase miniturization tech chain is so good (?) I had read somewhere else, however, that "shield mitigation" affects damage to hull and not just damage to shields, so I am confused how exactly the shield-bypassing missles do more total damage? Perhaps I was misled and "shield mitigation" really only does affect shields?

2. Subverter Distortion Field: I had some trouble getting this to work manually. I click the enemy ship and nothing seems to happen... perhaps I just have to wait a few seconds? And some posts on these forums say that this ability affects one enemy ship, and others say it affects whole areas/groups. Which is true?

3. Armor: How does it work? Does 1 armor point reduce each incoming damage by 1 like in Starcraft, or does each armor point reduce damage by a percentage like in War3?

4. Capital Ship Direct Damage Abilities: Is the damage reduced by shield mitigation? That would make a big difference. Also regarding the Desolator's Phase Missile Swarm, when it hits multiple targets, does it do 200/400/600 damage to each of them, or is it spread out?

5. "Fighters" vs "Squads": Is it just me or does the game use these two terms interchangeably and confusingly? Does the Skirantra carrier's Microphasing Aura affect only "fighters" or bombers too? What about the Devastator's "Jam Weapons" ability?

6. The game lists damage types and damage amounts, but it doesn't list rate of fire. How do you calculate dps?

Okay that is all I could think of for now... thanks for any answers!
strategy
9,055 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Good questions.

1. Yes, they bypass. Shield mitigation is really dps reduction, it doesn't matter if shields are up or down.
2. It's AOE centered on one ship, but the aoe is not large. It takes some time for the effect to begin, but if you manually target, it should work.
3. Each point of armor is 5% additional hp (WC3)
4. Capital ship spells ARE affected by shield mitigation. Proper micro is FIRST using the ability (for full damage) followed by dpsing with units. Phase missile swarm does total damage (200 over all targets). If it did that much to everything, it would be ridiculously broken.
5. All abilities that affect "fighters" affect both squads
6. DPS is just the listed number. It already takes it all into account.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
1. Yes, they bypass. Shield mitigation is really dps reduction, it doesn't matter if shields are up or down.
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Okay sorry but I want to be clear about this. I know they bypass shields. But when they bypass the shields, why exactly is that such a great thing?
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
If you decide to focus fire, you're only doing 40% damage.

If you phase through shields (whether or not they're up), you do 100%. So you gain quite a lot of dps.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Well there are some things that puzzle me and I don't know where else to ask, so here they are:1. Phase Missiles and Shield Mitigation: People seem to think that the Vasari phase missile upgrades are really spectacular. They don't increase the damage directly, but in bypassing the shields, I gather that the phase missiles must avoid the shield mitigation penalty, and that is the (only) reason that the phase miniturization tech chain is so good (?) I had read somewhere else, however, that "shield mitigation" affects damage to hull and not just damage to shields, so I am confused how exactly the shield-bypassing missles do more total damage? Perhaps I was misled and "shield mitigation" really only does affect shields?2. Subverter Distortion Field: I had some trouble getting this to work manually. I click the enemy ship and nothing seems to happen... perhaps I just have to wait a few seconds? And some posts on these forums say that this ability affects one enemy ship, and others say it affects whole areas/groups. Which is true? 3. Armor: How does it work? Does 1 armor point reduce each incoming damage by 1 like in Starcraft, or does each armor point reduce damage by a percentage like in War3?4. Capital Ship Direct Damage Abilities: Is the damage reduced by shield mitigation? That would make a big difference. Also regarding the Desolator's Phase Missile Swarm, when it hits multiple targets, does it do 200/400/600 damage to each of them, or is it spread out?5. "Fighters" vs "Squads": Is it just me or does the game use these two terms interchangeably and confusingly? Does the Skirantra carrier's Microphasing Aura affect only "fighters" or bombers too? What about the Devastator's "Jam Weapons" ability?6. The game lists damage types and damage amounts, but it doesn't list rate of fire. How do you calculate dps?Okay that is all I could think of for now... thanks for any answers!
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Hi Harkov. Remember you from MOO3.  ;) 
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
3. Armor: How does it work? Does 1 armor point reduce each incoming damage by 1 like in Starcraft, or does each armor point reduce damage by a percentage like in War3?
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1 point of armor increases effective hp by 5%. So say ab attack of 100 damage hits a hull with 10 armor. It is actually doing 150% of it's true damage(reduce to hp) because of armor. So that extra 50% is cut away by armor and you're left with ~67 hp lost by the target ship. It's mitigation of a different kind.

The result through simple calculation shows it to be the same as if you just multiplied the hp using the armor, but that wouldn't be correct when you add in hull repair since the mitigated damage is gone and needs no repairing.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
the math on phase missile shield bypass looks something like this:

assume that you're firing on a target that has already achieved max mitigation (~60%. also assume that each missile does exactly the same damage and so corresponds 1 to 1 the DPS sum of the all missile weapons in the fleet.

100 DPS worth of phase missiles would be reduced to 40 DPS with no shield bypass.

With 10% shield bypass, 1 of every 10 missiles will ignore the shield. So 90 of that DPS will be reduced by 60%, going to 36 DPS and the other 10 DPS will be untouched (negating even the base 15% mitigation). The total will be 46 DPS, or an improvement of 6 DPS over the unupgraded value. Note that if this had just been a flat 10% increase to damage dealt by missiles you would achieve only a 4 DPS increase (110 DPS x 40% = 44).

With 20% shield bypass, 2 of every 10 missiles will ignore the shield. 80 of your 100 DPS will be reduced by 60%, going to 32 DPS, and the other 20 DPS will be untouched. The total will be 52 DPS, a 12 DPS improvement over unupgraded value. If the upgrade had been a flat 20% to missile DPS the damage increase after shield mitigation would only be +8 DPS (120 x 40% = 48).

As can be seen in both cases the shield bypass upgrade is more or less 50% more effective than a flat damage increase upgrade would be. Simply put its the best DPS upgrade for any weapon system in the game.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Simply put its the best DPS upgrade for any weapon system in the game.
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Yeah not to mention that later in the tree the Vasari get to increase missile damage by 20%, so you have the phase missile damage multiplied by 1.20 :P

My conclusion is that the phase missile techs own while the pulse cannon techs are nearly worthless, and that is another reason missile frigates > skirmishers in general.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Phase missile swarm does total damage (200 over all targets). If it did that much to everything, it would be ridiculously broken.
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Sorry for that harkov, he misinformed you.

What phase missle swarm ACTUALLY does is 200 damge to 3 targets at level 1, 400 damage to 5 targets at level 2, and 600 damage to 7 targets at level 3.

So it's generally best to fire it when you have as many ships in its radius as possible. Note: it's broken in no way, shape, or form, by your logic the Kol's gauss gun + Lvl6 ability is far more broken, requiring only 1 level more to execute.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
You're an idiot.

You realize, that 600 to 7 targets at level 3, is 4200 damage from 1 spell.

The Kol's Gauss is 600 damage to 1 target.

You're just... whatever. If that spell in fact did 4200 at level 5, I can guarantee that Vasari players would all use desolator every game without exception.

You also realize, that it would instantly kill groups of LRMs. As you long as you did ANY damage at all, that spell would wipe half a fleet instantly. Even at level 3, you're dealing more than 50% of the hp of 5 LRMs, according to your logic? Are you saying that's not broken?

2 things.

1. You're wrong.
2. If you were right about the damage, you're even more wrong about the balance.

In conclusion, you're an idiot.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
You're an idiot.You realize, that 600 to 7 targets at level 3, is 4200 damage from 1 spell.The Kol's Gauss is 600 damage to 1 target.You're just... whatever. If that spell in fact did 4200 at level 5, I can guarantee that Vasari players would all use desolator every game without exception.You also realize, that it would instantly kill groups of LRMs. As you long as you did ANY damage at all, that spell would wipe half a fleet instantly. Even at level 3, you're dealing more than 50% of the hp of 5 LRMs, according to your logic? Are you saying that's not broken?2 things.1. You're wrong.2. If you were right about the damage, you're even more wrong about the balance.In conclusion, you're an idiot.
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I know this isn't on topic, but being rude and name calling helps how?

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
well last I checked being rude is a venerable RTS tradition -__-

I hope it's not true because I don't feel like using the desolator ;)
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
My conclusion is that the phase missile techs own while the pulse cannon techs are nearly worthless, and that is another reason missile frigates > skirmishers in general.
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Pulse Guns are useful. They are cheap and increase the damage of your Ravastras and Jikaras if you ever need flak or siege frigates killed. But more importantly, they lead up to the Pulse Beam weapons line - which means a big 35% damage boost to the Pulse Beam weapons that are fitted on all Vasari capital ships and are the main weapon of the Kortul Devastator. What's more, this tech line ends at Tier 4 unless you want to get the pointless bombardment tech, and is therefore really cheap for the boosts it gives.

If anything, it's Wave Cannons that are the least useful Vasari weapon. The only ships that really benefit from it are the Jarrasul Evacuator and the Skarovas Enforcer. The other cap-ships all use Wave as a secondary/tertiary weapon, and no combat frigate or cruiser uses Wave at all. What's more, it's amazingly expensive at Tiers 4 -> 6 -> 7 considering it's benefits.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
two points.

first, on the phase missile swarm thing. huntingx is basically correct. the damage listed on the tooltip is its total damage. if the level 1 swarm does 200 damage to 3 targets it will deal 66.67 damage to each target. if it hits fewer than its max number of targets, those targets will take more damage. 2 targets would take 100 damage each, 1 target would take all 200 damage. the ability is on par with the Kol's Gauss Gun for a direct damage causing abilities. The Kol is obviously optimized for firing at other cap ships where as the phase missile swarm will always hit as many targets (up to its max) as are in range so even when you only want to blast one thing you can't always.

second, on the wave cannons. consider that wave cannons are inherently more effective than any other weapon system due to the damage-armor type tables. upgrades to this type of damage are more or less already passively boosted by a decent amount against most targets. the skarovas are so powerful that upgrading their weapons becomes worthwhile in almost every circumstance where you can afford it. at that stage of the game you're not really going to be able to find a more potent damage upgrade (provided you've already got as much missile upgrade as possible). also noteworthy is that 3 of the cap ships have significant wave cannon batteries. the Devastator has basically all 3 types of weapons (4 missile launchers, 2 particle beams, 4 wave cannons). The whale is mostly wave cannons, i think its primary weapon system is 6 wave cannons. the marauder also uses wave cannons as its main weapon, though admittedly the ships strength is not direct combat. really its a pretty good upgrade for every cap ship except the Desolator (which uses almost entirely its missiles and is rarely in range of any of its other weapon systems) and the Carrier (which is both rarely in range and lightly armed in general).
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
second, on the wave cannons. consider that wave cannons are inherently more effective than any other weapon system due to the damage-armor type tables. upgrades to this type of damage are more or less already passively boosted by a decent amount against most targets. the skarovas are so powerful that upgrading their weapons becomes worthwhile in almost every circumstance where you can afford it. at that stage of the game you're not really going to be able to find a more potent damage upgrade (provided you've already got as much missile upgrade as possible). also noteworthy is that 3 of the cap ships have significant wave cannon batteries. the Devastator has basically all 3 types of weapons (4 missile launchers, 2 particle beams, 4 wave cannons). The whale is mostly wave cannons, i think its primary weapon system is 6 wave cannons. the marauder also uses wave cannons as its main weapon, though admittedly the ships strength is not direct combat. really its a pretty good upgrade for every cap ship except the Desolator (which uses almost entirely its missiles and is rarely in range of any of its other weapon systems) and the Carrier (which is both rarely in range and lightly armed in general).
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The Skarovas and Jarrasul are the only ships that use Wave as their main weapon. The Devastator uses Pulse Beams as it's main weapons, with Phase Missiles and Wave Cannons being secondary front-firing weapons. The Marauder, Carrier, and Desolator all have Wave Cannons, but they play the role of minor side-mounted weapons with Phase Missiles and Pulse Beams being the main frontal firepower on all three ships. The Karrastra Destructor also has side-mounted Wave Cannons, but you never want to get siege frigates into a fight anyway.

Basically, it comes down to the fact that Wave weapons are exclusive, expensive boosts for the Skarovas Enforcer, just like Plasma is to the Destra Crusader. Heavy Cruisers, with their strength, make the player pour tons of cash and resources into upgrading their special Composite weapons. Good for the TEC, their Kodiak doesn't suffer from this problem. ;p

Phase Missiles - Anti-Shield
Wave Cannons - Anti-Armor
Pulse Guns - Cheap but weak
Pulse Beams - Simple raw firepower