Okay, I'm going to hop up on a soapbox for a second...



Varlen, I understand you might be defensive about the manual if you wrote it -- hey, I've been there -- but I'd like to reiterate that no, it's not in the manual. There's nothing in there that conveys the information that TEC missile frigates are weak against cap ships and Vasari missile frigates are strong against cap ships. Which makes me wonder what else I'm missing.



Since when it providing hard data "[coming] across as a spreadsheet"? Having to "interpret" how to use units from your flavor text is cute and all, but it doesn't make for very good documentation. If things like unit balance were still in flux before the manual was finished, it seems a bit odd to devote 25 pages -- that's over 1/3 of your page count! -- to ship specifics.

And even if the numbers were going to change, but you knew enough to obliquely imply that certain weapons were good against certain targets, why not come right out and say it rather than imply it with flavor text?

I love the game, but I'm a bit worried that you guys are tucking some vital paper/rock/scissors info under the hood. That's a no-no if you want people to know how to play your game, and if you want your units to have the amount of functionality and personality they deserve. Hopefully, there will be some way to bring this info out in the game.

Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox. I just hope you guys don't do us like Gas Powered did us with Supreme Commander, where you have to sift through some third-party database to figure out how the units work...

-Tom

Not to get in the middle of the clash of the titans here, but:



Is exactly the point I was trying to make. The above statement is not really true. The TEC LRM is weakER than the Vasari Assailant against capital ships, but they are both GOOD against capital ships. Which is why the "good against" and "bad against" classifications for ships in Sins wouldn't work that well.

*runs off and hides*

In that case, my bad, since I was taking at face value your earlier comment that:



It seemed to me you had some insight into this based on looking into the data files. Saying a ship "doesn't do very good anti-capital ship damage" sounds pretty specific to me.

However, my point stands. If there are factors like that in the game, it would be nice to know. I've been pulling missile frigates out of my fleets to focus fire on cap ships, and if that's an effective or ineffective tactic, I'd like Sins of a Solar Empire to clue me in. It's already very specific about weapon types, which is pretty cool. But more info is almost never a bad thing.

-Tom

Then call it bad phrasing What he was trying to say (I think) was that the TEC's missile frigates don't do a damage type that is specifically good against capitols, whereas the Vasari Assailants do.

Fighters do very light, bombers do another kind -- I don't remember which -- which makes them useful against larger ships, frigates through capitols.

(Edit: Odd, this was supposed to be an edit to the previous post... I must have "fallen asleep" at the keyboard, sorry about that...)

Well, whatever Annatar was trying to say, it's just drives home the point that the whole situation is muddy and I wish Ironclad was more specific about the variances among the different ships. I'm at the point in the learning curve where I'm trying to micro the tactical battles to better learn the system, and Ironclad aren't really providing the tools to do it.

-Tom

I've been following this thread (along with lots of others that deserve IC clarification) but I'm wrapped up in something involving the launch on the 4th and I haven't had (and still don't) have the time to give you the detailed answers you guys need. I promise by tommorow night I'll explain the basics of the system, why it is the way it is, and what is being done about any valid points raised. Thx for your patience

*waiting glued to the monitor*

Scary.....

Ah, that raises another interesting question, what could blair be doing that is of great important, after the game has gone gold. I sense very pleasent surprises in store...

if no one puts it up by the time I get home(3-4 hours), I will copy the armour/damage modifiers from the file, so you can see actual numbers.

hi sorry for the delay.

if this infringes on anything, please delete the post, but heres all the general damage modifier data.


first chances to hit (accuracy)

DamageData
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIVERYLIGHT
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.700000
BOMBER 0.850000
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTILIGHT
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.650000
BOMBER 0.75
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIMEDIUM
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.1000000
BOMBER 0.1000000
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIHEAVY
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.100000
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIVERYHEAVY
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.200000
ChanceToHitTargetType:COMPOSITE
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.100000
ChanceToHitTargetType:CAPITALSHIP
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.100000
ChanceToHitTargetType:CAPITALABILITY
CAPITALSHIP 1.000000
INTERCEPTOR 1.000000
BOMBER 1.000000


The actual bonuses/penalties based on damage/armour types


DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYLIGHT:CapitalShip 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYLIGHT:VeryLight 1.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYLIGHT:Light 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYLIGHT:Medium 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYLIGHT:Heavy 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYLIGHT:VeryHeavy 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTILIGHT:CapitalShip 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTILIGHT:VeryLight 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTILIGHT:Light 1.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTILIGHT:Medium 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTILIGHT:Heavy 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTILIGHT:VeryHeavy 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:CapitalShip 0.75
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryLight 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Light 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Medium 1.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Heavy 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryHeavy 0.75
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:CapitalShip 0.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryLight 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Light 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Medium 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Heavy 1.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryHeavy 0.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYHEAVY:CapitalShip 0.75
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYHEAVY:VeryLight 0.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYHEAVY:Light 0.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYHEAVY:Medium 0.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYHEAVY:Heavy 0.5
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIVERYHEAVY:VeryHeavy 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:CapitalShip 0.75
DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:VeryLight 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Light 1.5
DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Medium 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Heavy 1.25
DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:VeryHeavy 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALSHIP:CapitalShip 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALSHIP:VeryLight 0.25
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALSHIP:Light 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALSHIP:Medium 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALSHIP:Heavy 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALSHIP:VeryHeavy 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALABILITY:CapitalShip 0.75
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALABILITY:VeryLight 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALABILITY:Light 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALABILITY:Medium 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALABILITY:Heavy 1.0
DamagePercentBonus:CAPITALABILITY:VeryHeavy 1.0


another tiny thing I found interesting


Definition
effectName "DamageEffect_Fire1"
maxNumEffects 1
minHullDamagePercentage .5
Definition
effectName "DamageEffect_Fire2"
maxNumEffects 3
minHullDamagePercentage .7
Definition
effectName "DamageEffect_Electrical1"
maxNumEffects 3
minHullDamagePercentage .4
Definition
effectName "DamageEffect_Smoke1"
maxNumEffects 3
minHullDamagePercentage .9
Definition
effectName "DamageEffect_Steam1"
maxNumEffects 3
minHullDamagePercentage .9


I dont remember seeing some of the last things (like dots in other games I guess), so maybe for retail?

hopefully someone will convert the retail data (not worth converting out of date data from beta 4) into a nice chart like this one


from http://www.battle.net/war3/basics/armorandweapontypes.shtml

There's also the problem that Tom's using what's close to the release build of the game and nobody else here (outside Stardock and Ironclad) have it. I would take anything said by the beta testers will a grain of necessary salt because about 80% of the game has changed from Beta 4.

Tabulating such data isn't difficult if you know how to use the right tools, as an example here's how to parse the "DamageData" block in archpsi's post into a table in a spreadsheet program:

Step 1) Copy and Paste DamageData block to a text editor with "regular expression" find & replace capability (I use TextPad)
Step 2) Strip the "DamageData" header line
Step 3) run the following regex replaces:
regex:[ \t]*\nCAPITALSHIP[ ]
replace:\t
regex:[ \t]*\nINTERCEPTOR[ ]
replace:\t
regex:[ \t]*\nBOMBER[ ]
replace:\t
regex:ChanceToHitTargetType:
replace: (nothing, use the empty string to remove all occurrences of 'ChanceToHitTargetType:')
Step 4) Add a header line at the top of:
WeaponType TargetingCapitalShip TargetingInterceptor TargetingBomber
(there should be tabs between each word, important for parsing by excel)
Step 5) Make sure Excel (or OpenOffice, or whatever spreadsheet program you like) is open
Step 6) Highlight the whole file, CTRL+C (copy)
Step 7) Paste into your spreadsheet program, it should automatically parse out the tab-and-line-break delimited data into a table, which you can format and play with as you like.

Converting that table into an HTML table for web consumption isn't difficult, though maintaining the data in a spreadsheet format can be useful for users who want to fiddle with it.

And there are probably much easier ways of doing what I've just described, I'm a very "must use hammer, I don't care if it calls for a screwdriver, I know how to use a hammer" sort of person.

The DamagePercentBonus data requires a bit different approach if you want it tabulated:

Step 1) Copy and Paste DamagePercentBonus block to a text editor with "regular expression" find & replace capability (I use TextPad)
Step 2) run the following regex replace:
regex:DamagePercentBonus:\([^:]+\):\([^ ]+\) \([^\n\t ]+\)[^\n\t ]*
replace:\1\t\2\t\3
(note that your text editor's regex dialect probably differs from textpad, and you won't have to put the \ character in front of ( or ) to get the match capture)
Step 4) Add a header line at the top of "WeaponType ArmorType DamageModifier" (note the tabs, important for parsing by excel)
Step 5) Make sure Excel (or OpenOffice, or whatever spreadsheet program you like) is open
Step 6) Highlight the whole file, CTRL+C (copy)
Step 7) Paste into your spreadsheet program, it should automatically parse out the tab-and-line-break delimited data into a table, which you can format and play with as you like.
Step 8) (I'm using Excel 2007 here), go to Insert, then PivotTable, make sure it's using the whole range of the data that you just pasted in, and that it's putting in on a new worksheet (cleaner that way), and click OK
Step 9) Put "WeaponType" in the Row Labels box, "ArmorType" in the Column Labels Box, and "DamageModifier" in the Values box (make sure it does Sum of DamageModifier rather than Count or anything else)

The data should be tabulated now.

(Edit: note that excel will give you totals and subtotals that you probably won't care about, they can be turned off)

Um, if its per salvo and not damage per second, then how can you gauge accurately which ship does more damage than another? do all ships cannons fire at the same rate?

Nope.

Er, then my question remains.

What does damage output listings actually GIVE you if different ships fire at different speeds? whats the point of even telling you accurately how much damage a ship does per salvo?

I think we should wait and see how the retail interface portrays damage, but in beta you can only see attack rate in the ship data files or by measuring yourself (doubt anyone did that) .

hopefully the gamma interface has changed to include some of the data.

It doesn't. It's per second IIRC, but definitely over time. If you want to see the salvo stats, look in the .entity's.

*working on explanation now*

Get some sleep perhaps?

lol, actually i was working on it. laid down for a bit and then I fell asleep and now I'm back. better finish it up!

*hands Blair an extra pillow, and spikes his water with Nyquil*

*walks away whistling innocently*

*sends eet to Blair's house*