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Worrying 1up.com Preview

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Worrying 1up.com Preview

Hopefully just an earlier gamma version...

from Sins Forums
Was just browsing through 1up.com and came across another preview for Sins; http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3165369

It raises a few concerns about the tactics and capabilities of the AI, and subsequently the campaign itself. Not sure if this preview has been mentioned before(this forum after all is ruthlessly efficient in covering SoaSE) but was curious as to whether the issues 1up raise are a product of playing a pre-release candidate (and have now subsequently been resolved)?
71,971 views 51 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
No, that build is from November or early December. The press hasn't seen anything beyond the betas yet.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
OK. That is what I figured. I wont waste my time then.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

No, that build is from November or early December. The press hasn't seen anything beyond the betas yet.
End of quote


And still they critique the AI for almost all their preview, only stopping to say everything else rocks in about 3 sentences? Bunch of jerks, if you ask me.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
I say The Pink Space Ponies sall spork them for what they have done!!!!!!
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
What do you guys expect from 1up and similar sites? They cater to the 7-15 year old crowd and IGN seems to go for the 13-21 demographic. There really is not a good gaming site that caters to the 22+ crowd. That I'm aware of at the moment. Sadly enough it is that group that has the money to spend in spades on games, equipment and gear. However traditional thinking naturally precludes them as a target demographic.

It is my hope that will soon change as gaming appears to be entering a golden age culturally and is finally being accepted as a legitimate entertainment venue applicable for all ages.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
What do you guys expect from 1up and similar sites? They cater to the 7-15 year old crowd and IGN seems to go for the 13-21 demographic. There really is not a good gaming site that caters to the 22+ crowd. That I'm aware of at the moment. Sadly enough it is that group that has the money to spend in spades on games, equipment and gear. However traditional thinking naturally precludes them as a target demographic.

It is my hope that will soon change as gaming appears to be entering a golden age culturally and is finally being accepted as a legitimate entertainment venue applicable for all ages.
End of quote


Spartian, I have been looking around and thinking the same thing... I have been developing pinkspaceponies.com with an eye towards filling just that very gap you speak of!
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
it's based on a post beta 4 build. Not gammas. It's pretty dated.
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So it would seem then that i have managed to find the most irrelevent preview for this game on the internet. Nevermind then.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
Could someone tell them their mistake, in a friendly way ;)

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
FACT:
every single RTS AI is retarded.
End of quote


IN FACT:
That is simply not true, Relic's 'Company of Heroes' AI even at normal difficulty is a real challenge in skirmish maps until you have practiced and learnt how to beat it. It will take you a reasonable ammount of time and gameplay experience before you can beat the CoH Expert AI.
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
or five games if you are me :D
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top

or five games if you are me
End of quote


Indeed, it wasn't that hard. Yes, the CoH AI is rather good, but it still fails to beat any slightly dedicated amature player. The same with any RTS AI. I simply chalk this up to RTS being far to complex, and requiring far to much planning to make a good AI for it.

making an FPS AI that can beat every single pro-player without cheating isn't that hard, simply give it perfect aim and a good dodging algorithm and you're done. Making a checkers AI that can beat every single pro player is relatively simple because of the small number of moves and possible settings.

Making a Sins AI that can beat a pro is neigh imposible, making an AI that can beat a dedicated amature will be quite a feat, as i've yet to any that can.
I think it will take quite some years before any RTS AI can beat good players without cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I welcome a good AI, I just don't think it will be a replacement for a human in the higher skill levels.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
I would suggest that there is a perfectly acceptable middle ground for SoaSE somewhere between 'every single RTS AI is retarded' and an 'RTS AI that can beat good players'.
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
that would be nice, except that upper register never exists.
of course, bar giving the AI 3x resources. but we can hardly count flooding your enemy as smart AI.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
I was playing Dawn of War this weekend for a bit and I kept wishing that my units' abilities could be autocast like in Sins. :P
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
I'd be happy in DoW if my units could at the very least all head in the same direction when ordered to. Wonderful game, but god awful pathfinding. Battle Realms incidentally had a very good AI (whilst we're thinking of strategy games with an adept AI).
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top



Indeed, it wasn't that hard. Yes, the CoH AI is rather good, but it still fails to beat any slightly dedicated amature player. The same with any RTS AI. I simply chalk this up to RTS being far to complex, and requiring far to much planning to make a good AI for it.

FACT:
every single RTS AI is retarded.

There isn't a single AI that can beat any semi-skilled human without cheating.

End of quote


Funny, I recollect numerous "semi-skilled" players losing to a.i. in games such as Supreme Commander (even a few experienced players succumbed) , CoH (hard setting, since they admittedly cheat on the harder settings), Warcraft 3, Homeworld 2, DoW (even with its blatantly bad a.i.), and there were a few more titles, that I can't recollect....Oh, wait, Kohan 1 & 2

or five games if you are me
End of quote


Clearly, you aren't semi-competent, or you cheated; either or.
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
I lose to the easy AI's in SupCom, I hate that game... COH, I can take on an expert AI 1v1. Then again I've been playing for over a year.
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top

Funny, I recollect numerous "semi-skilled" players losing to a.i. in games such as Supreme Commander (even a few experienced players succumbed) , CoH (hard setting, since they admittedly cheat on the harder settings), Warcraft 3, Homeworld 2, DoW (even with its blatantly bad a.i.), and there were a few more titles, that I can't recollect....Oh, wait, Kohan 1 & 2
End of quote


Generally, computers win in micro contests and lose in strategy battles. The more a game leans to micro, the more their impossible to match speed becomes an advantage, and the more it makes up for not being able to match the creativity of a human. There are some that can strategize well, but humans draw on all their past experience, an advantage computer AIs cannot take advantage of. The AI is stuck at a certain point the devs built it up to, while the human gains enough experience to beat the computer's superior micro ability with superior strategy, or is reduced to tears by his inability to control his units as quickly as the computer. I don't think that there is any game AI that could beat a human with equivalent micro skills and a modicum of experience. Given the vast amount of information for the AI to cope with individually in sins, it becomes a very hard game to write a good AI for, which is why the placeholder displayed such simplistic behavior in a complex environment, something which should have been acknowledged in the review.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top



Generally, computers win in micro contests and lose in strategy battles. The more a game leans to micro, the more their impossible to match speed becomes an advantage, and the more it makes up for not being able to match the creativity of a human. There are some that can strategize well, but humans draw on all their past experience, an advantage computer AIs cannot take advantage of. The AI is stuck at a certain point the devs built it up to, while the human gains enough experience to beat the computer's superior micro ability with superior strategy, or is reduced to tears by his inability to control his units as quickly as the computer. I don't think that there is any game AI that could beat a human with equivalent micro skills and a modicum of experience. Given the vast amount of information for the AI to cope with individually in sins, it becomes a very hard game to write a good AI for, which is why the placeholder displayed such simplistic behavior in a complex environment, something which should have been acknowledged in the review.
End of quote


But isn't the purpose of single player a.i. to make the player more experienced so they'll be competent enough to successfully compete in multiplayer? In the Preview that everyone is bashing for being incompetent or not rationalizing enough (accepting bad a.i.), the a.i. is being exploited for its moronic behavior. Even a semi-competent player can notice such laughable maneuvers. That isn't helping a player to gain any crucial experience, unless it is in regards to abusing problematic a.i. I'm also one prone to optimism, I don't condone the belief that because a game is complex, it should suffer from bad a.i. Also, the argument primarily revolved around the idea that no game could beat a semi-skilled player, which clearly has been proven not to be true. Of course the a.i. will lose its edge eventually, particularly as the player develops a broader understanding of complex strategies and learns a.i. patterns.

Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
But isn't the purpose of single player a.i. to make the player more experienced so they'll be competent enough to successfully compete in multiplayer?
End of quote


Not necessarily, though I do personally share that view there will be many players that never go near multiplayer for many different reasons.

Multiplayer is a double edged sword, but thats a topic for another thread.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
The whole AI debate is rather pointless at the moment. After all, A.I. generally is just programmed to recognize and counter known Human strategies on defense, while mimicking known Human strategies in its offense. Just look at the history of Chess AI. (Deep Blue anyone)

As yet, IC has had only their own strategies to counter and mimic, you can expect it to probably be somewhat limited at release (although still vastly superior to what we have now, which appears to have no recognition). We have been promised, however, that it will get more attention post-release and probably continue to improve through the life of the game. This is Stardock after all... They who brought us the wonders of the GalCiv AI.
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
I just hope everything comes together in the end, and this game turns out to be a classic. And good single player a.i., if hasn't been improved (I'm assuming it has), will be a plus. ;)
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top


Funny, I recollect numerous "semi-skilled" players losing to a.i. in games such as Supreme Commander (even a few experienced players succumbed) , CoH (hard setting, since they admittedly cheat on the harder settings), Warcraft 3, Homeworld 2, DoW (even with its blatantly bad a.i.), and there were a few more titles, that I can't recollect....Oh, wait, Kohan 1 & 2
End of quote

Yeah, I lost the first few games as well. And then I knew what I was doing and started winning a LOT. I'd say in that list I found Warcraft3 the hardest, but only because I failed to grasp how powerfull heros are.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
n the Preview that everyone is bashing for being incompetent or not rationalizing enough (accepting bad a.i.), the a.i. is being exploited for its moronic behavior.
End of quote


Incorrect: our complaint lies with the fact that he implies that that will be a problem with the release AI -- he failed to point out that the AI is far, far from complete, a fact which I'm sure SD / IC pointed out to him. He spent most of the article complaining over what must be the final feature to complete -- you have to do the AI dead last, after all!
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
Incorrect?


Given the vast amount of information for the AI to cope with individually in sins, it becomes a very hard game to write a good AI for, which is why the placeholder displayed such simplistic behavior in a complex environment, something which should have been acknowledged in the review.
End of quote




well in any case their only complaint is a lackluster AI that can be beaten teh same way every time. hrm, that sounds like just about ever RTS game thats ever existed.
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I'm not that worried about the AI when the game first starts. Though it will be quite stupid still, it will be better then Beta 4. And Stardock has already said they will work with Ironclad to continuosly improve the game. And seeing the fact that Stardock is AI crazy I am sure it will soon be up to speck.
End of quote



FACT:
every single RTS AI is retarded.

There isn't a single AI that can beat any semi-skilled human without cheating.
End of quote


The above statements were the ones I read prior to, and after, Frogboy acknowledged that the a.i. had been improved. Clearly these complaints were essentially stating poor/exploitable a.i. is to expected in an RTS (complex ones). Even a few folks, yourself included, mentioned that, even if the final a.i. was problematic, it would be remedied in a foreseeable patch. Which indicated the reviewers sentiments might be true. At least that is what I interpreted. But I don't wish to discuss this any further, since it's irrelevant until the final game is here.