Whats wrong with this AI???

I just dont understand. From reading Brads games i got an impression the AI was tough...Well my AI is dumb.

I am having my forth game now, having easily won the first three on sub-normal/normal settings. Now i am playing medium map with AI set to intelligent...but damn...there wasnt even a small period of time when AI took the lead of me. Straight from the start I colonised around 60% of the habitable planets. Met all the major and minor races...but here is what happened and always happens next, a sort of a 'chain reaction'...I get one or two technologies that no other race has. I sell/trade my tech to other races for money/tech. I manage to do a lot of trading with each race individually. In the end i end up having every tech any race has + a budget with heavy surplus. I set gov expenditure to 100%, that way my research, millitary and social production get a boost. Because of this, new technologies are being researched really fast. As soon as i see that my budget hit a negative territory I sell more tech to every race and get an even bigger budget surplus. And do this over and over again. In my current game I have around 24000bc. I am the most tech advances my gov expenditure was never lowered from 100% mark. My taxes are at 0%. The AI keeps on giving me money in form of a present. I am on my way to winning through cultural domination...(92%)

I know this is too early to moan and that i should try a huge or gigantic galaxies. That way the AI might have a chance of kicking my butt. But here is what i think is the problem: AI races fail to trade technology between themselves effectively leaving me to do that instead. Maybe I am wrong and all my victories were nothing more than luck. I will try another game but i am not sure if i should bother finishing the one i am playing now :notsure:

What do you guys think? Has anyone encountered this in their games yet?

-TLA-Russian
1,544 views 28 replies
Reply #1 Top
If it's easy for you, then you shouldn't have any problem being top on the metaverse...

~SDC~
Reply #2 Top
Lol, I havent filed my score to the metaverse yet because i havent played one game to the end yet. Also the top ppl there (at least the majority of them) played on large or gigantic maps. I dont know how the score is calculated by I guess the size of the galaxy plays an important part. I also read somewhere that to play on gigantic or large map you need a relatively poweful computer. I have a P3 600 Mhz laptop (dont think its powerful enough). Besides I generally dislike playing on huge maps since there is a lot of management involved. But this is not the point...

What I have noticed is that the AI is EXTREMELY good with managing the economy and fighting. The Yor in the game i am playing declared war on me and fought a lot like a human being. But since I had 10000bc or smth (that I have easily accumulated thanks to a lot of tech trading) i created a massive (moderd) amry relatively fast and destroyed them.

What (in my opinion only, based on observations) AI fails to do is trade technology between themselves efficiently. Is this true or am I talking c**p?

I will try a bigger map next time (not gigantic, but bigger than normal). I dont know if I should finish the game I am playing now, since the victory is so obvious (or should i play till the end and see if anything goes wrong?)...

-TLA-Russian
Reply #3 Top
BTW I am not saying the AI is dumb (i know i said it but thats not what I meant). AI in GalCiv is much better than in any game I have seen. You have done an awesome job and I absolutely love the game.

I also like the idea of updating the AI with strategies used by the best players. That should make this game even more addictive :)

-TLA-Russian
Reply #4 Top
I am not sure the bigger games provide more metaverse scores...it sounds like it is based more on difficulty. And maybe these games you THINK you are winning might not actually turn out that way if you actually FINISH the game. I saw a few play examples where people thought they were way ahead only to have everything unravel on them later in the game. If you are indeed as good as you say, please finish some games and submit your scores and then they can use that data to improve the AI. :)

--Soulfire
Reply #5 Top
I can see what you are talking about Russian, because this was the same way I won my game. This is also a similar strategy (exploit?) that was usuable in Civilization 3.

If you ever get a slight tech advantage over the other races, you can overpower them... by giving them tech!

It's so simple, you trade them technology for 50 turn leases of large amounts of money, every few turns when you need more money, you create another lease. Since you are gaining a surplus of money, it helps you research tech faster because you can increase spending, so you can get even more money. The AI players have to lower their spending because they keep paying you. It is a hurdle they cannot overcome.

It's a sucker deal, and the AI will fall for it every time.
Reply #6 Top
Cymsdale thats exactly what i am talking about.

Soulfire777 i have just finished the game i was talking about (won through cultural victory just as i expected) and got a mere 345 points LOL

Next game I am having on a big map. BTW I have just checked the size on gigantic galaxy and its ... well... gigantic. I dont think i will ever finish a game on a map as big as that.

-TLA-Russian
Reply #8 Top
This isn't an exploit, at higher AI levels, the AI is aware of this tactic. It looks at what percentage of its income is in leaess from trade when it evaluates a proposal.

Reply #9 Top
So -TLA-Russia, are you playing the best AI or a reduced difficulty one?
Reply #10 Top
Loving the game so far!

Some random thoughts and comments...

I stumbled onto pretty much the same strategy as CLA Russian's by my third game (all computers bright or better, small galaxy), and it definitely worked. Not sure if it will hold up at the "intelligent" level, and my strategy was a bit different from CLA Russian's, but the result was the same: comfortable wins at the normal and bright levels.

Again, maybe this changes at the intelligent level, but at the bright level and lower the AI opponents don't seem to trade tech aggressively. After surviving the initial expansion in good shape (the AI is awesome in the expansion portion of the game), I switched for a quick while to a research-heavy spending ratio (something like 10-30-60) to give me some quick techs that the AI didn't have. Then I went to the opponents (mostly the good ones) and traded for techs, adding in some extra 50-month leases for supplemental cash (The AIs will pay a lot more in 50-month streams than they will in 1-shot payments.). The minor civs were really a big help here, as they were loaded with cash and often had some pretty good tech early in the game. All the extra trading has the added bonus of giving you solid relationships with the other two good civilizations.

The result is that a short way into the mid-game, you've got most all of the techs that the other players have (I hesitate to trade too much with the Drengil: they scare me), and you've got a significantly larger stream of income than the AI opponents do. You can now pour more money than the AI opponents can into research and domestic building, which serves to compound this lead, as you sell off low techs for cash. I didn't amass the cash that CLA Russian did, and instead gave away a lot of tech to friendly civilizations to build strong relationships, but the result was the same: I never felt threatened because I was just too far ahead of the AI opponents, and the trading had built such solid relationships with two civs that I felt they wouldn’t interfere when I went to war with the other ones one at a time.

Some other thoughts on the “bright” level, which may or may not apply to the “intelligent” level:

1. Computer opponents expanded incredibly well, but they ignored the 13- and 14-point planet systems in the expansion. I gobbled most of these up and immediately set them to soil improvement, and very shortly after that added the habitat improvement upgrade (you can get this tech fast because it’s easy to trade for or research yourself). This left me with a significant advantage in planets by the mid-game, and also had the benefit of allowing me to expand my range into even more distant systems. The result is that you meet more AI opponents, and can trade more with them, etc., to fulfill the above strategy. I find the opening game to be extremely well coded with regards to AI strategy and tactics, and this was the only way I could get a solid advantage in empire size at the beginning of the game.

2. The AI seems to send unguarded clusters of transports on invasion runs. Maybe this changes at the next level up, but it was sure easy to tear apart invasion forces at the bright level. Interestingly enough, the computer AI was very good at destroying these formations too (in the last mop-up war against the Drengil, they fought brilliantly against overwhelming odds by sending fast, nasty frigates into my home sectors to nail transports, etc.). This combination of AI resulted in relatively ineffective invasions by AI opponents both against me and against each other, as most invasion forces seemed to get wiped out before they could invade. There were quite a few wars where a superior civilization didn’t take even one system when fighting a much weaker opponent. Again, I’m guessing that the AI tries to stack support with transports at the full-out AI level?

3. A very minor thing, but the friendly civilizations seemed to have difficulty getting around roadblocks I set up, and furthermore, didn’t seem to get pissed that I had set them up. I used this tactic to prevent a friendly civilization from taking an unguarded minor planet that I didn’t want them to have (it would have made them too strong, and I wanted the planet myself but wouldn’t be able to get there for a while with transports). I could only get four ships in front of their cluster, but I figured that would at least slow them down enough until I could get a fifth ship over there. Movement wise, the four ships should not have been able to stop the force, but the AI never cut across the diagonal to keep going, so four ships ended up being enough. Politically, they never got upset that I was in effect blocking their force from getting the planet, and 8 million troops happily went back and forth for a couple of years before the Drengil eventually declared war on them and destroyed the entire force in one turn. I invaded the planet a couple of years after that. It seems like the game could benefit from some code that would take offense if friendly ships consistently blocked three or more adjacent spaces of a particular craft over a period of time, and movement coding should be modified to cut the diagonal to get where it needs to go. Again, maybe this changes at the next level up.

4. One thing that has been mentioned on these boards is the idea that war could be formally declared rather than just start by attacking an enemy ship or planet, and that there be penalties for not doing so. I think expanding only this concept would be a very good thing, and serve to make the game more challenging. For example, in my last game, I had very good relations with the two good civilizations for the entire game. Peaceful trading, good commentary, etc. However, the slug-thingies (I forgot their original name) had started on a system with four 15+ planets, had grabbed two more good systems in the expansion, and now were ready to invade the huge home world of one of the minor civilizations. This would have made them a clear threat to my empire. I noticed a stream of unguarded transports heading toward the unguarded enemy planet, and managed to get three ships nearby. Diplomatically, I asked them to make peace with the minor, but they wanted an incredible amount of money/tech to do this. I said screw it, slaughtered the whole force, and launched a massive assault on their home system, wiping my “friends” from the galaxy in a few short years. Yet my reputation stayed exactly the same as before (53, neutral), and no one got upset at this. Early on in the game I found metal with my survey ship and proceeded to wipe out a number of colony ships and constructors from the neutral civ. At least the second act (wiping out colony ships of a nation at peace that has done nothing to you) and most likely both of these acts should have brought severe diplomatic penalties with it, both in terms of reputation and relations with other countries. In short, I should have had to think twice about the penalties for acting like an asshole and attacking friends or unknowns without good cause, or without giving warning of my actions.

I firmly believe the developers want to make the game a great one, and in no way mean this post as criticism of the game. Also, it’s unfair to draw conclusions based on a handful of games at less than the AI’s full tilt. I only add it here as food for thought for players as they get past the brutal early stages of the game, which is where the game clearly deserves its reputation of being extremely tough. However, I encourage you to try these strategies once you get past the beginning stages of the game. They definitely work. Also, if anyone has played at the intelligent level or higher, I’d be interested to hear which of these AI weaknesses disappear at the full strength coding level (intelligent) from players that have played at that level. Do the AI players coordinate their attacks more forcefully? Do they trade tech more aggressively?

Lastly, I have a question about the Metaverse. I’m confused as to what actually gets posted when you post the score. Does some statistical replay of the game get transmitted to Stardock so that they can analyze the game, or is it just the score? If posting the score would somehow help describe the strategy, I’d be happy to post in the Metaverse, but the score itself seems to be more determined by galaxy size than other factors (my bright level win in the small galaxy only got a 138, while the same type of win against beginner opponents got a 125. Interestingly, an alliance win in a normal, small galaxy only got a 108. All of the games seem to take about the same amount of time, game-wise.)

One other thought that came to mind…

Is it possible, because the computer is thinking during the human move, that the computer plays a better game on faster computers? Or plays a worse game if you make your moves really quickly, therefore denying it time to think?

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for a great game!
Reply #11 Top
1) AI at the begining of the game expands really well (since it knows where the good planets are) and it tends to block me all the time. I think it heads straight for your location to take planets near YOU rather than colonise planets around themselves. I love this feature cos it makes things much more difficult.

2)I have won on intelligent level (all AI were intelligent) and what I noticed is that when they are trying to invade a planet they first destroy all the defences, then they send an unprotected (sometimes they were protected) transports from their colonies. The problem with this is that while that tranport travelles its distance the enemy has planty of time to build more defences. But invasions did happen.

3) Never tried the roadblocks :notsure:

4)I dont think you get any penalties to your good/evil factor for declaring war on anyone (even your closest 'friends'). You simply piss them off and it will be hard to get them to like you later on (unless you completely wipe them out). But its funny how AI always gives you wanrning when it declares war. I think the same should be required from a human player...

5)Metaverse: I still dont have my 345 well deserved points displayed there. Maybe its because i submitted my score before registering. I will try again.

6)I tried a new game last night on a large galaxy and had my butt handed over to me in a relatively short period of time. My strategy desribed above didnt work well but I am having another one now and it looks promising :D

-TLA-Russian
Reply #12 Top
"#9 by Citizen BvG - 3/29/2003 6:01:40 PM

So -TLA-Russia, are you playing the best AI or a reduced difficulty one? "

I am playing on intelligent level. Its not the highest level but I think this is the limit after which AI gets some economy bonuses. And since I like to play fair this is the level I like most.

-TLA-Russian
Reply #13 Top
I added a post about it somewhere else, but I started a game at the intelligent level, small galaxy and got a horrible starting position. Nevertheless, the tech trading works like a charm: I've just discovered trade and have a tribute stream from the AI opponents of nearly 200bc/turn, about 1500bc in the bank, production maxed, and I lead the tech race by at least two techs over every other civilization. This is only three or four years into the game.

Have to see how it turns out, but I would think this would result in an easy win, even given the poor starting location.

2. Regarding the transports, it seems like a better AI strategy would be to cover transports consistenly with warships, and have them hang close to a planet under assault. Another thought would be to mass them all in one big invasion force. Having the transports nearby allows you knock out opponents' planets before they know what hit them. Since you can see what the enemy defenses look like, it's easy to assemble enough force to guarantee a victory, then you just hammer the planet in one quick turn. As it is, when the AI attacks, you know that transports will be coming from AI planets when warships attack yours, and given that the AI ships like to travel in straight lines, you can often predict exactly where they will be. A couple of cheap frigates can wipe out the whole force. Bringing everything together would allow them much more protection, and make it much more difficult to stop. It would also make the galaxy a much scarier place, and create a greater need for sensors near your planets. As it is, you can pretty much just need a flimsy defender at a planet. When that gets wiped out, you make a quick build up of warships at home or divert them from elsewhere, and send some fast ships to hunt along the likely invasion route to wipe out the enemy transports. Either strategy has a good chance of working, but basically it's the time lag that gives you a lot of time to defend. I would think that one turn assaults should be more common. Ideally, it would be nice to see one-turn AI attacks that take out three or four planets. That would be awesome.
Reply #14 Top
"#8 by Avatar Frogboy - 3/29/2003 4:45:17 PM

This isn't an exploit, at higher AI levels, the AI is aware of this tactic. It looks at what percentage of its income is in leaess from trade when it evaluates a proposal."

Higher than Intelligent?
I am afraid to go beyond that LOL

Anyway, I usually sell more technology as soon as my income hit negative territory. In other words you will propose to sell tech at the moment when AI is stops paying you anything making the deal very attractive. As far as selling 5-6 tech at the same time (in the same month) to the same race, I didnt encounter any problems with getting good money for it (even if it meant that the race will have to pay me 1000bc per month).

Just a little note: in my game that i won i had accumulated around 100000bc without ever rasing my tax rate above 0%.
Reply #15 Top
Godzilla, thanks for the good game narative.
1. One critical item is where you start the game and what PQ is earth.
ctrl-n will re-initialize the game, so if you start with a PQ of 16 in a corner, your chances of a good game are minimized due to the distance you have to cover and insufficient prodcution to build colony ships.
As the AI know where all the yellow stars are, I dont find it cheesy to get a fighting chance from the start.
2. After this week's posts on AI, production, morale, etc, I'm sure that will provide food for toughts to the dev team to improve the AI.
Dont forget, the AI is only as smart as the programmer(s), but with all this input from all, I'm sure the creative juices are flowing.

;)

~SDC~
Reply #16 Top
one note, on the next-to-highest level, ("brilliant"?) the AI is only getting a 5% econ bonus, so that's barely enough to count, especially since bonuses are linear.
Reply #17 Top
this problem was fixed in the 1.01a patch. Check the other threads.

Astro

~SDC~
Reply #18 Top
the latest version radically diminishes the amount of cash you can get for techs. i don't think this strategy will work anymore.

cheers

h
Reply #19 Top
My understanding is that the AI is getting a better estimate of the value of the techs. The AI at the hardest level has always considered this, but the lower levels didn't consider it as much. This has been extended so that the lowere levels take the value of the tech more into account. But I could be mistaken.
Reply #20 Top
I have a couple of concerns (with the normal AI, at least, haven't tried with higher).

1. It seems to value transports (and combat transports) as almost worthless. I ground a war between two other races to a screeching halt by buying all their transports each turn. Then I declared war on them and invaded with about 100B troops, and used the surplus troops to boost the population of my new acquisitions. Yikes! :)
Perhaps the game should pull troops off purchased transports, and redistribute them evenly across the transport's home system (or even the whole empire).

2. The garrison AI doesn't seem to let ships attack targets of opportunity. I had a lone transport parked outside an enemy planet, which was garrisoned by a single dreadnought. At any time, the dread could have popped out of orbit, nuked the transport and popped back into orbit in one turn... but it didn't.


~SDC~
Reply #21 Top
Cataleptic - what intelligence level were you playing? The AI will take out targets of opportunity on higher intelligence levels.

~SDC~
Reply #23 Top
Hm, I've had it take out Constructors as targets of opportunity at subnormal, and not run into the problem you've encountered.

~SDC~
Reply #24 Top
Another thing that I did the other day:

Yor was the weakest. And I wanted to take out Arceans. So I went to Arceans and said that I will declare war on the Yor if they give their space ships that were garrisoning their planets. They agreed. Straight after that I went to Yor and (the same turn) made peace with them. So in the end I declared war on Arceans but they didnt have any ships to defend themselves with since they literally gave them to me for free.

-TLA-Russian

PS: This is obviously an exploit but a lot of things need to be there at the same time for this to work. At the moment I am playing a game where every race is very strong so this exploit simply wont work. And btw the AI was set to intelligent in that game.
Reply #25 Top
OUCH! Perhaps an easier fix (than fixing just the AI) would be the ATTACK agreement has a minimum time on it of one or two years.

~SDC~