Tech trading is ridiculous!

Well, you don't need Harpoon II that badly.

My biggest problem are trades that are just plain dumb for the AI to turn down. In my last game I tried to trade my Phasor V for the AIs Phasor II, and I had all of the diplo techs, translators, showcase... and an "incredible advantage in diplomacy". Nope, AI wouldn't trade its lower level tech from the same tree as mine. That is just frustrating.

The other thing I have noticed is that now Super Diplomat AIs is a sure way to die. Super Diplomats demand so much for peace... that it is just easier to wipe them out, which other AIs or myself happily do.

In most cases, the new trade rules are helping the AI I think, and that's a good thing (IMO). But, there seem to be situations every game now where AI stubborness in the diplo screen just gets it in trouble, and hurts its potential.

I am not a very experienced player, but when you get strong militarily, other races seem to become wary of further strengthening you. In the dialog panel, they tend to say things about their advisers warning against trading military techs even if you are on good terms with them. Had you been trading for a non-military tech, you probably would have had a much more reasonable deal.

Exactly why I turn tech trading off. You can learn what techs a computer has with espionage.

They've really forced players to turn tech trading off. It's so bad I wish I had vanilla DA instead of the current patch...

Smart AI Frogboy??? Looks like a good deal to me.

I will agree to a point. Tech trading has always been a bit dubious in game. It can be exploited. It can be absurd. And I know it has been tweaked several times. Each time SD has tried to tighten up what the AI will trade for and with.

In general military techs are a no no. But why is this so hard for some to see as a normally smart thing to do? I personally do not give away weapons or defenses to anyone. So why should the AI? In previous versions the AI would gladly give you whatever tech you wanted. People complained this was too easy that the AI should be more picky. So the devs tweaked it and now the AI is picky. Too far? I really can't say since I haven't had an issue with the past or present system.

Most other techs have a weight system attached to them. If the AI doesn't value it of course it isn't going to give you a bunch of techs for it or even a lot of BC.

I suppose that's where I differ from other players. I simply don't bother trading tech for tech. I just sell the techs I have to other empires for a nice profit. And of course I trade the same tech to all empires on the same turn so they can't turn around and sell it themselves cause everyone else already has it .

And for the record as a previous poster alluded to you can see what techs an empire has if you reach a high enough espionage rating. But that's a whole other discussion .

Weapons tech is pretty highly valued by the AI, but it works both ways. You'll pay extortionate prices for any weapons tech you want from them, but at the same time you can usually rip them off with your own weapon tech (assuming your not after another weapons tech).

Seriously, why would a minor race want any of that? They don't colonize anything. So they don't need those techs. They only travel outside their planet to mine resources, so they don't really need range. They hardly need fertility acceleration, since they only have one planet. Powerplants are limited use, because they don't build a lot of ships (just enough to fill up their orbit). They're dead meat in a fight anyway, so they don't need any combat techs.

The real trouble with the game is tech trading with minor races, period. Heck, minor races in general, really, are nothing but gift packages for the player. Either to exploit by trading, or to simply conquer (since the planets are nice, even better if they have a capital or three).

Anyway, my point is, minor races are neat, but they aren't implemented well - they should be more than things just to exploit from the player's point of view.

From looking at this the tech trading in DL was better.

The same sort of thing happens even if I try for a something less threatening. I typically have to offer anywher from 3-5 techs just for a lousy life support tech. And as for that message, they don't do that anymore. I wish they did really, it would save us the hassle of trying to make a deal. The way it's being done now, you almost always get the sense that the deal is possible for the right price. It would be alot less hassle if they just flat out refused.

There are some deals you can make that are more less fair, though even then I usually have to give up 2 or 3 techs and maybe some cash. I never end up with just a straight swap for techs. You'd think that should be case at least with the colonization techs. I'm playing a Super Isolationist custom race so you'd think another race would be more than happy to trade my colonization tech for theirs, one to one. But that's not the case.

Actually I kind of did, the Korath were up to Photonic Torpedoes. I was trying to catch up so I wouldn't be helpless in case he turned on me. He had already demanded tribute on a couple of occasions, which I refused. I was hoping I could at least skip a step.

I personally haven't had much of a problem with tech trading in the latest patch
. Yes some of the AI's are very picky, but I still find plenty of scenarios where the AI will give me what I want in exchange for sensors and a few hundres bc's.

I find that getting higher level weapon techs is very difficult, although from the right races i can get them for a big price like 3 of my techs and money (how it should be IMO!). When the AI is on say, harpoon III, its often easier to get Harpoon, which is not a bad jumping off point for your own research. I find anything to do with Colonization just about impossible to get.

I also have a very tough time getting the Altarians to give me ANYTHING (usually play as Arceans). I have very good luck with the Toreans, Korath and even Drengin.

I think it just boils down to the AI really doesn't want you to have a lot of techs. Things like weapons and colonization techs can directly screw them over and they obviously don't want that. I like the way the new system is as it forces me to be more selective in my tech trading, and at times not rely on it at all. In the past it was way too easy! But at the right place at the right time I still walk out with 4 techs from a deal so I really can't complain.

That's not what I'm discovering. There is the odd deal where I can make a fair exchange, more or less, but most of the time I have to sell my soul in order to get what I want. Granted, with 17 races in my game, I'm still finding it possible to trade my way to tech superiority, but it's definitely a lot harder than it was. Which is actually a good thing really, it was way too easy before.



That's exactly what I was trying to do there. He already had Harpoon III, I was trying for his older tech. I had Harpoon I myself, so I was hoping on skipping a research step on my way to Photonic Torpedoes, which the Korath already had.



At least the first stage. All those Advanced versions I listed I got through trading, I hadn't researched any of them myself. But there's no way I've ever been able to get any of the first stage techs, even with trying to trade them another one in exchange.



I also think part of it is that the AI looks at how many techs you have in comparison, and acts accordingly. I find the times where I seem to get the best deals are when we're more or less on equal footing. If it has alot more than you, it will try and prevent you from catching up. If you have alot more, then it will try to extort all it can from you in exchange for it's techs.

I one time managed to trade Advanced Aquatic Colonization in exchange for Advanced Barren Colonization, at no extra cost. Not sure why it was that easy that one time, but it worked!

I'm quite happy with the current tech trading. Most of the times AI's don't agree to trades I'd wish to do but with persistence (checking the diplo screen almost every week to check if they've got something new and making lots of propositions) I get numerous good trades each game.



I believe that a restraint like this to your trading will harm you in the long run. Very often in the early/mid game there is a single race that poses the greatest threat to you (usually Drengin or Korath as they both seem to expand effectively and are aggressive). To be able to resist that threat my initial military techs are picked to work against that threat AND through trading I try ensure that my precious research points aren't wasted against others either.

- I try to get weapon techs of the type the threatening AI has through trade so that I can spread the same weapons (hopefully not as advanced as the enemy #1 but advanced enough to make it their primary weapons type) to as many AI's as possible. This ensures my defenses are good against majority of races. Don't forget to take all of the prior techs too, AI's seems to give them for free and you can trade them all one by one to other AI's.

- I'm willing to trade older defenses against that "majority" weapon type to any AI that is likely to get into war against the AI I consider threatening. From midgame on I can give lower level defenses to anyone willing to give me something good in return.

- Little later in the game I have no objection of trading low level weapon techs from any branch (like Lasers which can often be traded for a good price even quite late into game) for anything I consider useful.

- Minor races are too exploitable: I rarely care what I give to them. If they have something I want I can make a "bad" trade as they never threat my empire.

- Most importantly, I'm very eager to spread new planetary improvements to all AI's (including Terraforming techs which are quite highly valued by AI). That has two benefits: 1) upgrading planets eats AI's resources and 2) I want to invade planets that don't require complete rebuilding.

And remember to research those diplomatic techs You don't have to go for the overkill with them, a small advantage is often enough.

What game are you playing? I have to sell my soul in order to get one of the AIs older weapons techs. Look at what I had to offer for Harpoon II.



That's true. I usually go for Soil Enrichment early and I can usually get some reasonable trades for it.

What I meant was this: if you're trading that Harpoon II don't forget to take all earlier missile techs as well because AI seems to give them for free with the more advanced one. You may have to give a lot for tech you're actually wanting but in many cases all the techs prior to that level don't increase the price of the trade at all while you're still able to trade those lower versions for a decent stuff.

i have an impossible time when trading on difficulties Crippling and up. i play as Terran and it sucks, there's a cut off point where diplomacy just doesn't do anything for you. trading is so bad, i really don't see why it is in the game. they should take it out or fix it. on lower difficulties it can be exploited. you can trade an economic treaty early in game for a couple planets & all their techs, gold, and influence points.

Well see that's the point of this game. Your style dictates certain things while mine doesn't. I've not lost a game where I refused to trade weapons or defenses. My reasoning in general is this: I don't know who I'm going to attack or be attacked by so why allow a potential enemy to have the very things that give me an edge? And I shouldn't say *never* because there are occasions where an AI will offer me a weapon or defense in exchange for one that is of equivalent values at which point I accept. But I do not initiate a trade like that myself. As I said the majority of the time I don't initiate a trade with a tech to get a tech. Most of my trades are for BCs.

Also trading techs becomes easier if you are:
1) Same alignment
2) On good terms
3) Allies

Even those 3 things though aren't absolute. The AI is fairly good at determining when the player is just trying to swindle them.

There is no need to have the same weapon tech as the enemy. What's important is to have the defense for its primary weapon choice. In most games I tend to research 2 weapon branches and all 3 defense branches. Mind you not all to the same level. But I've found that being able to adjust my ship builds according to the latest war gives me a decent advantage over the AI at least until SD tweaks it again.

I agree they really screwed this up... I wanna know if anyone can win a game beyond tough anymore, because without being able to trade techs, i get about 40 techs behind after the first year.(painful diff)

The only thing I have major problems with is what was mentioned earlier, which is the occasions where the AI turns down ludicrously favorable deals for no reason whatsoever.

I am also mildy suspicious there are special rules or something behind the scenes when you take the Super Trader super ability (which I tend to do). One would think, based purely on the time it takes to research it, Master Trade could be traded for just about anything early in the game, but I can rarely get anyone to trade anything for it, even if you exclude military and colonization techs. Maybe the AI just doesn't want trade tech?

-Pleth

I don't i've ever seen the AI get swindled, they pretty much do all the swndling on a 10:1 ratio.

ps those 3 things you mentioned don't really help, the only thing i've seen that helps is to be allied with whom ever your trading with.

Sure. Since the new trading rules I have posted 7 suicidal wins on the metaverse. Most of them with tech trading on. Now I didn't get any tech with it on, but I gave away tech to manipulate the enemies and start wars... there is still plenty you can do to try and control the enemy.

The AI will not tend to trade away weapons technology.

There have been hundreds of threads over the months discussing how players simply would build up their diplomacy and crush the AI by getting all the weapons techs they needed.

A player managing to get, for instance, Phasors technology in exchange for a ton of good but non-military techs is still the path to disaster.

Obviously the case where a player is willing to trade Phasors 5 for Phasers 2 shows the AI shoudl probably trade that but that gets to be such a specific case that programming for that as opposed to putting time into other areas is not realistic.

I understand what your saying, but to me the trading rules makes the game one dimensional, plus I have no techs to prusade anyone with or a whole lot of cash for that matter, and the one AI I can prusade is not much stronger, he has about 6 techs to trade to my 2, and he doesn't like me much(probably cause i still have laser based ship to their photon torpedos).



actually if i can get anything, usually its weapons. but if i want to get the trading tech, its all but impossible i usually have to get advanced trading first because the AI will just about give that tech away which makes no sense.