General Pants General Pants

Comprehensive(?) carrier proposal

Comprehensive(?) carrier proposal

probably not "new" ideas

Formula for carriers that would hopefully minimize large-scale changes to game design:

1) Have a special "hangar module" that allows a ship to "carry" one or more other ships. The basic one would be a 18-space module permitting the carriage of one (1) tiny-hulled ship (module size must NOT scale with carrier hull-size). Later ones could allow "small" hulls ,"mini" hull, or more than one hull at a time for a slight space savings:
* "carried" ships cost -1 logistic point (e.g., 1 for a tiny hull, 0 for a mini);
* "carried" ships are "assigned" to a carrier... THAT may take some extra programming
* "carried" ships are otherwise just part of the fleet, up to the capacity of all hangar modules in the fleet;
* you'd probably also have starbase hangar modules;
* non short-ranged ships (see below) can also be carried;

2) Add a new option for "tiny" (and maybe "small" hulls called "short range." These hulls have no innate speed, nor sensor rating, nor range. Modules cannot be added, and neither can engines ["It followed us!" "No, it's a short-range fighter..."];
* short range ships can not move on the map, but can be transferred between ships or from a ship with hangers to a starbase hangar or planetary stardock;
* if abandoned without a suitable carrier, these ships are lost;
* short-range ships can be built 2-to-1... that is, you can build two at the same time, if they are the same class;

3) Add a high-tech 8-space "mini" hull type that is half the size of a tiny hull, and can only be "short-range";

4) Allow missile defense ratings to be used against ANY weapon fired from a ship with a "short range" hull (only once for missiles, or course) [short-range ships lack the tactical advantages of supralight engines, so ECM, chaff, and point defense will foul their attacks];

5) Add extra techs:
* "fighter-control" techs that allow additional reduction in the logisitics cost of carried units (can't go below 0, of course);
* "fighter production" techs that allow more short-range hulls to be produced at once;
* "self-defense" techs that allow multiple short-range hulls to be engaged;
* "fighter defense" techs that provide a bonus for attacks on short-range hulls;

UPSHOT: you get:
* fighters you can design with the current design system;
* capital ships with some built-in resistance to fighters (assuming they have missile defense);
* clear differentiation of which ships can be "multi-targeted" and which can't, without changing established game dynamics;
* carrier-based fighters won't tip the strategic balance, because they cannot operate without a carrier;
* players get modest numbers of fighters (a 80-space hull is probably only going to carry 4-5 mini fighters) without overloading the graphics engine with "swarms" of ships;
* you CAN use X-Wing style long range fighters (with hyperdrive), but they won't pack the punch of short-range fighter, which can put everything into weapons and defenses;
* carrier-based fighters can be a powerful force-multiplier in battlers
* but capital ships are still useful... investment in carriers will pay off but it will cost money.

What do you think?

Jon
23,989 views 39 replies
Reply #26 Top
Carrier modules should have been in the game in the first place, it was a mistake to overlook it


Nah, there's no point to adding them. They wouldn't add any significant benefits. It's just a lot of hassle (particularly with regards to the AI) just for 'flavour'.

I think they would be good for GC3, when there are tactical battles. If large ships took a while to turn during the battle, then carrying smaller maneouverable ships would be an advantage, but right now there's just no point.
Reply #27 Top

Keep posting General Pants, I'm really enjoying your posts and concepts on fighters.

Although I posted

It ain't gonna happen.


I should have added "soon" or "not in this GC2"
I think eventually Stardock will add fighters to a GC2 sequel even though Brad doesn't seem to really care for fighters.
There are just too many players that would like them and it is something that would add flavor if nothing else. Just think of the Babylon5 mod -- fighters were a major part of space combat in B5.

Just like Stardock plans to do MP for GC2 too -- they are just waiting to do it at a time when they can do it much cheaper than they can do it now.

Reply #28 Top
Hey,
I didn't get what was aimed at who!!!
Where's the reply to my post. There are so many things in their that almost render your idea "stupid"(no offence).
Please give a direct clear reply to me after reading my post carefully.


I am sorry for all the posts; there was a lot of constructive criticism, and I thought it would be better to simply provide the new ideas than to specifically answer each person's suggestions. Perhaps this will make things more clear:

I have never given suggested costs for carrier modules, because that is a play-balance issue that would be handled by the developers, and tweaked through playtesting. If carriers are too expensive to be useful, they will have to be made less expensive. I'm flexible.

As for early carriers being useless... well, that depends on what you want out of carriers. As others have noted, space fighters just can't have the kind of advantages over larger ships that aircraft have over wet navy warships, unless you fundamentally change the rules of the GC universe. If I want to put an extra target in space, one that can at least do a little damage, even one fighter will do just fine.

As for the small number of fighters I proposed; as I said, I wanted to find a way to get carriers into the game without disrupting the balance. If fighters are significantly better than regular ships, or available in huge numbers, you will HAVE to have fighters to play the game. That won't be a popular change to the game. Anyway, I find it pretty silly to suggest craming a fighter into a hangar that takes up fewer spaces than the fighter's base hull size... How can you have an 8 space fighter in a 4 space hangar?

Reply #29 Top
Keep posting General Pants, I'm really enjoying your posts and concepts on fighters.


I appreciate the encouragement, but I think it might be time to stop. As it is, all this effort will probably get lost in the archeives [sic?] of the forum. Besides, with all the sensitivity to "spamming the lists" (I'm still not sure why this is such a big problem), I would rather not get put on StarDock's BIG LIST OF IDIOTS WE IGNORE by beating what they consider to be a dead horse (I may already be on that list anyway!). I certainly don't wish to get lumped in with comments like:

Carrier modules should have been in the game in the first place, it was a mistake to overlook it.



If StarDock does decide to consider fighters, and they choose to peruse the archives, having a SHORTER thread (in terms of number of posts) might actually increase the probability that it gets read. That's the direction I started in, by providing a "comprehensive" (as if!) proposal that might catch the developers' eyes later on down the line.

Still, though, I do appreciate the support!
Reply #31 Top
Do devs actually ever hear us??

CARRIERS FOR GC3 OR THE EXPANSION AFTER DA!!!

NOT FOR DA!!!!!!!


Brad posted himself on one of these threads, and said it's not happening in GC2, period. That means any expansions or patches ever made for it.

While he didn't mention anything about GC3, I see no reason he'd change his opinion on the subject then. But it hasn't been ruled out specifically (yet).
Reply #32 Top

Do devs actually ever hear us??

Yes, and this dev at least thinks that you need to chill out a bit.  Do you need a time out as a Visitor for awhile?

Reply #33 Top
No, sorry.

And if I said that in a angry tone it would be like this: "DO THE DEVS EVER ACTUALLY HEAR US??" instead of this: "do the devs ever actually hear us??".

What I said was in a sarcastic tone.
Reply #34 Top
Yes, and this dev at least thinks that you need to chill out a bit. Do you need a time out as a Visitor for awhile?


I think I love you CariElf!      
Reply #35 Top
And if I said that in a angry tone it would be like this: "DO THE DEVS EVER ACTUALLY HEAR US??" instead of this: "do the devs ever actually hear us??".

What I said was in a sarcastic tone.


Sarcastic, angry, whatever you want. Answering back to Cari won't get you far. She made the game, and she'd be the one making carriers, if they ever did happen. So you're not doing yourself a favour.

Also, the rest of it was in caps. Plus this is a text based environment, and Stardock are still working on their psychic forum reading software. Expected release shortly before DNF.
Reply #36 Top

Actually, it's more the general commotion that he's been kicking up lately that has caused me to warn him.

I ended up having to demote him to Visitor, but NOT because he was annoying you, Marc, but because legally people under the age of 13 are not allowed to post on forums.

Reply #37 Top
Methinks someone is starting to get under some skin, eh Marc? lol
Reply #38 Top
I know that Cari, otherwise I'd have a list
Reply #39 Top
Doesn't change a thing. I still love you CariElf! lol