Soaking the rich means soaking small businesses

Understanding S corporations, LLCs, DBAs, and C corps

I recently wrote an article explaining how John Kerry's proposed tax hike on "individuals" making $200,000 or more would cost jobs. In a nutshell, the reason is that most "individuals" filing their tax returns as making $200,000 or more are actually small businesses, not individuals.

It didn't take long for people to get confused about that. That's because many people really don't understand the tax system of the United States. Not that it stops them from yelling loudly about "the rich". It's not very complicated once you get over the basic hump of confusion that there are many different types of companies and they get taxed differently.

Let's start with Joe Entrepreneur.  Joe wants to start a company selling pet rocks. He calls his business "Joe's Pet Rocks". Simple enough. Legally, he files in his state as a DBA (Doing Business As). So at this point, Joe's Pet Rocks is, the company, is just Joe.

And Joe's business prospers. It does so well that Joe hired 3 people to help sell the pet rocks. His business makes $150,000.  He pays  his 3 employees $30,000 each. He also has $30,000 in expenses (rock procurement). And that leaves $30,000 left.  He's not paying "himself" as much as he's simply keeping what is left.  After all, Joe's Pet Rocks is just Joe Entrepreneur still.

At tax time, Joe's business is taxed like any other individual because he is just an individual still. In 1991, I founded Stardock Systems. It was a DBA of Brad Wardell. The money it made was part of my personal income tax return.

The United States has millions of "companies" that are just DBAs of individuals. They often have employees. Many of these companies make more than $200,000.  The owner of the company is taxed just like any other individual.

Continuing...

So one day one of Joe's customers is unhappy with his rock. He threatens to sue Joe. Luckily, Joe is able to avoid a lawsuit. Because as a DBA, Joe has no real protection. If Joe were sued, all his personal assets (his house, his car, his furniture, his clothes) are on the line.  But Joe is still wary so he decides to become a "real" company. He has 3 options:

1) He can become a Limited Liability Company (LLC). LLCs are nice because they're very simple. They're quite new. LLCs can file for bankruptcy and the person running the company isn't going to lose their house and home and other non-company related assets.  However, income to an LLC is treated just as it was before -- as the individual income of the owner.

2) He can become an S-corporation. This is similar to an LLC. It's designed for slightly bigger companies because it's easier to do partial ownership. But ultimately, the income is still treated as the income of the principle owner of the company. The income flows into the 1040 forms of the owners.

3) He can become a C-corporation. This is the "big" company type. This is where the company actually files as itself. It becomes a new entity. If you're a guy, this probably the closest you'll ever come to literally giving birth to a new individual. :) These new entities have their own tax structure. So when you hear politicans talking about "Taxing corporations" this is what they're talking about. Big business.

Most businesses, in the United States, are DBAs, LLCs, or S-corporations. This is important because the income they bring in goes directly to the individual's 1040. It has nothing to do with how much money the "CEO" makes.

Let's use Joe Entrepreneur's example.

Joe's Pet Rocks becomes "Joe's Pet Rocks, Inc." It's an S-corporation. He now has 5 employees and his "company" brings in $250,000.  Just like before, he pays his 5 employees $30,000 apiece and has rock procurement costs of another $30,000 and misc. expenses now of say $30,000.  That's $210,000.  He pays himself a salary of $40,000 per year. But tax-wise, it's dealing with the income of the company. Not his personal salary.

Like regular individuals, he has deductions. They don't take on gross income any more than you get taxed on gross income. But the important thing here is that Joe is being taxed based on how much "Joe's Pet Rocks, Inc." is netting. not what he pays himself.

So let's say Joe's Pet Rocks, Inc. nets $201,000. Under John Kerry's tax hike on "rich individuals", this "company" gets taxed. What do you think Joe is going to do? He could lower how much he pays himself. And most entrepreneurs will try to do that because, contrary to what people who have no business experience claim, most entrepreneurs are very ethical, compassionate people (I borrowed on my own house to avoid laying off people at Stardock when the OS/2 market collapsed in 1998 -- and I'm typical). But at a certain point, he's going to have to lay someone off.

Each company is different. But what people need to understand is that most companies are taxed as individuals. Not as companies. So when you raise the tax on "the rich" you're really raising taxes on small companies. And more to the point, you're sucking out the capital of small companies. Capital that could have gone to hire more people.

I'm not saying you should never have taxes or never raise them. But there should be a bloody good reason to do it. Not simply because you don't want to cut the "Outhouse" budget of some national park or because you want to pass another entitlement.

Bush's "tax cut for the rich" was designed to help small businesses as well as provide more money for people to spend money on things. Bush has done a pretty bad job of explaining this stuff to people but I can see why. Even after having explained this, I'm sure some (sorry) dumb ass is going to comment on this without a hint of understanding of how most businesses are actually individuals.  If you want them to create jobs, you want them to have as much capital as possible.

24,487 views 24 replies
Reply #1 Top
Question: How would partnerships work in this context? Are they more like one of the types of corporations or a DBA?
Reply #2 Top
Brad,

Excellent explanation. I think most people don't realize or even think about the so called "wealthy individuals" as small businesses. These are people who have (generally) risked a lot of their personal money and effort to start and run their own business.

RedShirt: Partnerships (LLP, LLLP) generally act the same as a LLC (the income is reported on the individual’s 1040 – Schedule K)

Reply #3 Top
Brad- just read a book about this. Excellent explanation, as Jerry said.

~Dan
Reply #4 Top
Great article, the second to the last line almost caused me to spew my coffee.
Reply #5 Top
This is a great explaination.
Reply #6 Top
Kerry’s plan would insure that s- corporations no longer avoid double taxation while enjoying the legal benefits of limited liability.
Reply #7 Top
But perhaps you understand the theory that maybe those "individuals" that prosper the most from doing business in America should foot a larger share of the bill than the middle class, the people working two jobs to make ends meet.

I can't comment on your explanation of the tax code, though I doubt it is inaccurate. The tax system is in drastic need of reformatting, as it has been for years.

However it is the belief of many Americans that the fabulously rich (those who deserve no sympathy) ought to fork over more in taxes, because after a point
(say $200,000) money becomes nothing but vanity and luxury.

And no the jury is not still out on whether the tax cuts created jobs. They clearly did not. We are millions of jobs short of the Administration's original projections.
Reply #8 Top
Excellent article........... why do liberals always want to punish those who creat most jobs. It does not make sense.
Reply #9 Top
So, what I don't get here is why people are opposed to a "flat tax". It seems to me that if all working people paid an arbitrary amount (say, 15 or 20 percent) that everyone would be contributing equally to the system. I don't particularly find it fair if a guy who is making $200,000 has to pay $10,000 in taxes where if I'm making $50,000 I end up paying $8,000 (just an example). This would all be before deductions of course, and I think that's where we need to concentrate if we are going to make the tax system more fair. I think that if someone is making a million dollars a year, that he should not be obligated to pay more taxes as a percent than some grunt on an assembly line making six an hour.
Reply #10 Top

Mr_Frog: Under a flat tax most people would pay more in taxes and the wealthy would make less.

Everett: I don't think you are understanding the point still. Any multi-million dollar business is going to generate a net of $200,000 or more if they know what they're doing. They're not "rich" in the sense that they have their own private planes. They are simply individuals whose jobs have netted over $200k. But they also have large expenses.

Based on your reasoning, I'm ridiculously rich. My company generates millions of dollars in revenue. But I live in a subs in a nice house. I drive a normal car. I don't own a boat or anything most people would consider "luxuries". Under Kerry's plan, I'd pay more in taxes. Where do you think that money comes from? It's not a matter of buying one less jewel or ruby or whatever you imagine. It's a matter of not hiring as many people or worse, laying someone off.

That's the whole point: People have got to quit imagining that the people making $200k per year are "rich". Most of them are not. They're just small business people.

If you could somehow make a distinction between individuals who simply make $200k or more via their salary and people who make $200k or more because their business revenue is counted as their individual revenue then you would have the affect you desire. But Kerry's plan doesn't. And it won't because at that point his tax increase would be trivial.

There are plenty of people who do make big money (pro sports players, executives at fortune 500 companies, etc.). But they're not typical. They only seem typical because that's who the media likes to focus on.  The media doesn't focus on the guy who quit his job on the assembly line to start up a "priority" delivery service that has 8 employees delivering medical supplies between various university hospitals. And after having put his house and personal life on the line for 4 years to get the company started finally starts to break even making $1.5 million per year which is almost all consumed by capital costs (delivery trucks, etc.). Which, btw, can't be deducted right away (they're assets).

Most people who make a lot of money do so because they: a) Have a particular skill few people have or b) They took some big risks that paid off. Or a combination of both. 

I'm not exceptional at anything. But I took some risks early on and it paid off.  But with success comes added pain.  Right now I have a lawsuit that is against me personally (http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=16074&category=main ). I've also worked 7 days a week for the past 6 weeks. I haven't had a vacation in nearly 2 years (I mean literally, I haven't left the local area for more than a couple of days at a time except on business).  And my tax bill is into the 6 digit range.  And yet my lifestyle isn't appreciably better than my neighbor who is only a little older than I am and is a relationship manager at Computer Associates.  People who do make a lot of money (on paper) usually also work a lot harder and sacrifice a lot more. And we pay a much greater burden of the taxes than even our income warrants. 

I don't have a problem with a "progressive" tax system. But I have issues with how politicians manipulate the ignorance of the general public into imagining that $200,000 is somehow a "lot" of money.

Reply #11 Top
Thanks for the articles.

As you mentioned above, if you could seperate business income from personal income life would be so much simpler. I assume there is a good reason as to why this is not done. I believe a person should get taxed on their own take home income. This should also include benefits in kind (such as company cars etc). The profit a company makes should be taxed completly seperately.

Paul.
Reply #13 Top
Then what is the point you would raise taxes at? We have to pay for the 'endless war' started by the deceit of this Administration in Iraq. Our taxes now pay for yellow hand towels having the haliburton trademark on them - marked up 300% of cost - and meals they never served our troops. Any cost-saving measures you'd advise? At what level should taxes be raised? Solutions?
Reply #14 Top
This was a very good article.

Most people seem to think that all businesses are the "C" type. Not every business is a large, stable corporation with huge piles of money.
Reply #15 Top
"We have to pay for the 'endless war' started by the deceit of this Administration in Iraq"

The war can be ended at any time. I assume by "deceit" you mean the fact that we haven't found WMD's that Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, and most other democrats said they had.
Reply #16 Top
"However it is the belief of many Americans that the fabulously rich (those who deserve no sympathy) ought to fork over more in taxes, because after a point
(say $200,000) money becomes nothing but vanity and luxury.

And no the jury is not still out on whether the tax cuts created jobs. They clearly did not. We are millions of jobs short of the Administration's original projections."

Making $200,000 is not "fablously rich". That shouldn't even be considered rich.

The tax cuts brought us out of recession and has created jobs. Just last month triple the amount of jobs were created. Do you think raising taxes would do that?
Reply #17 Top

As you mentioned above, if you could seperate business income from personal income life would be so much simpler. I assume there is a good reason as to why this is not done. I believe a person should get taxed on their own take home income. This should also include benefits in kind (such as company cars etc). The profit a company makes should be taxed completly seperately.

There's lots of reasons to do this.

For one thing, now you're getting DOUBLE taxed if you're a small business. Joe Entrepreneur gets taxed on his revenue and then taxed again when he pays himself.

Another thing is that it's bloody complicated. Most Americans find it a pain to do their taxes as is. Try doing another set of taxes except for a corporation where things are much more complicated.   Joe just wants to run his business, not become a CPA (or have to hire one).


 

Reply #18 Top
Wahkonta, ignoring your "deceit" nonsense for a moment, if you have full employment, raising taxes won't cost jobs. But if you want to "create jobs" you need to provide money (or at least not suck out the money) from the people who do the actual "creating".
Reply #19 Top
A few points Brad in no particular order:
- I agree that taxing the 200,000+ wage bracket will not deliver the income calculated upon. There simply is not enough of the high end income earners to fund government spending. In short, taxation will find the middle class.

- There are several issues eroding the coffers of politicians. Jobless recoveries, a dwindling manufacturing base, increased competition for crude oil, and little a occupation in the middle east. All dictate fiscal restraint, not spending increases. As stated, if one does not tax here than wherelse can one tax? Or said another way, tax and still get elected?

Study tax history and one finds that you cannot tax a nation into prosperity. Kerry does not comprehend this. Bush half comprehends but deflates the currency with a loose dollar policy via easy Al Greenspan.

Expenses need to be cut back. To make up the short fall, the government is currently doing two things, the are printing money like no tommorrow, without any relation to gdp or trade. Inflation plain and simple. The other thing they are doing is drawing from social security and issuing iou's. When the baby boomers retire a couple years and find the piggy dry, taxes will reach historic highs. The finger pointing will go into overdrive.

Any ideas?

T
Reply #20 Top
Very interesting article. Great job explaining the concept which was easy to follow and understand.

Thanks!
Reply #21 Top
So at the moment an American who has a DBA LLC or S corp pays NO company tax. Only personal tax.

The system sounds far to twisted and complicated. Surely it would make more sense to charge a company tax on company income and then a personal tax on personal income. Yes, part would then be double taxed, but the company tax would be at a lower rate than personal tax and so the net should be a benefit. It would also seperate 200k small business men from 200k earners and encourage people to fund their business as oppossed to themselves.

As for complicated, I must admit being amazed at the number of tax bands you have.

Paul.
Reply #22 Top
Excellent article. Bush may not be dumb, just seems to be the least articulate President in US history. It has become a necessary part for "small" business to move their manufacturing out of the country because labor costs are less. American labor expects and needs health care and a wage that can allow cost of living things like food and shelter for a family. The cost for all of these has escalated to a point where the Pet Rock guys product will have a label that says "made in Malaysia" or some other place.

Neither Bush or Kerry have any idea of what the potential crisis they represent to the average US citizen Joes.
Reply #24 Top

I thought I'd add one addendum to this:

If the tax-cuts expire, then people will lose their jobs.  That's because many of those S-corps and LLCs will have less capital to work with and invest with because it's gone to taxes.

What often happens when taxes are raised is that companies tighten their belts. Most people know people at work who are not critical to the company. They may be fine employees but they are basically "break even" employees (i.e. they neither contribute nor detract from the bottom line).  These are the people who are let go when taxes get raised.

The point being, when you raise taxes on "the rich" you're really socking it to the middle class.  "The rich" don't go without personally, they simply pass it on to their employees.

That's why it's better for the economy for the government to be as involved as little as possible because it is historically a lot less efficient in creating wealth and opportunity for its citizens as business is.