1.1 Balance Problem

from GalCiv2 Forums
I've played a coulpe of games with 1.1 now and found the Torian's to have become the race to beat in a large/huge game with lots of planets to settle. The 30% growth is just over powering for claiming new worlds now. This was on inteligent also and I had no chance to see the new human or Drengin AI's. They just got crushed!

Anyhow it looks to me like the growth bonus is just over powered on this type of map.
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Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes this has been reported by many players, it is above all overpowering as hell. I'm sure it will be worked on.
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Growth was nerfed from the start lol, its just now working.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I thought they nerfed growth.


Yes they nerfed natural growth, so anythign with pop growth bonus totally outgrows other civs in terms of population. Where most of non growth civ's worlds will be at 1-3 billion, all of Torians' worlds have 5 billion plus!
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
They did, they nerfed it from 20% growth to 3% growth. However, in doing so, they made growth bonuses tremendously overpowering. The Torians gets 30% growth bonus, and the Thalans gets 20% growth bonus, they are usually the main powers of most games. The only way to keep up with them is to get growth bonuses yourself.

For those who wants to play a more fair game, simply mod those growths down, cut all the growth bonuses by 50% (Torians, Thalans, racial picks, and aphrodisiac). It should better balance your game somewhat. I'm not sure if that is what Stardock will do, but it has resulted in better games for me so far.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I haven't installed the beta, so I really can't comment o the Torians being unstopable. However, I have read posts about how the Yor are unballanced, or how the Torians are unballanced. I have played numerous games now, and have moved up to crippling. And one thing I noticed is that the Torians were NEVER powerful in any of the games I played. They were always WAY behind in tech, and just seemed to be ganged up on by everyone else wanting an easy kill. In my oppionion the game seems relatively balanced, seeing as how people are having far different experiences than I am. The only race I see that has a huge advantage over the others is the Terrans. That is because I always use them.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah b4 the beta torians were no super power, but with the beta they have dbl the population of everyone else, which makes me wonder why my population is always pretty much the same as everyone else when i play torian or thalan!?
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah b4 the beta torians were no super power, but with the beta they have dbl the population of everyone else


Just more fuel for the furnaces... Makes the game a bit more challenging, which is nice - my first game with the beta had the Thalans develop in the mid-game to become the galaxy super-power, something I'd never seen from them before. The Torians are pretty good at the initial colony rush now, but still easy prey afterwards, so I don't think it's unbalancing in any way.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I haven't installed the beta, so I really can't comment o the Torians being unstopable. However, I have read posts about how the Yor are unballanced, or how the Torians are unballanced.


Then why are you commenting about how they are in the Beta?! BTW: I did not claim Torians were unstoppable, rather I claimed they looked unbalanced. (ie. They will always be the main opposition in this type of game in the beta build.)

The Beta is NOT like the released game in that it's actually easy to reduce population of your home world too much. if there are a lot of planets to settle. One actually has to slow down colony ship production to let the planet grow in population. That is all races *except* Torian. (Possibly the other race mentioned as well but I've been playing them.) The result is the Torians grab more planets than the other races.

Planets = power + tech

I mean really should one race be more than dbl. next closest race at the time last planets are being settled?!

I mentioned 2 AI's for the simple reason those are the "best" ones in the reports about what is in the beta.

Please note the Beta has a LOT of changes in game balance! It is not like the released game and I'd expect the programers expected balance issues!
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just more fuel for the furnaces... Makes the game a bit more challenging, which is nice - my first game with the beta had the Thalans develop in the mid-game to become the galaxy super-power, something I'd never seen from them before. The Torians are pretty good at the initial colony rush now, but still easy prey afterwards, so I don't think it's unbalancing in any way.


What size maps? I can see pop growth being a scaling varriable. Much better the larger the map and/or the more planets to settle.

For example in my last game on huge they grabbed 1/4 of the galaxy in the initial rush with all civs playing! Soon there after planets started falling to them just due to their size! With each one that falls they get harder to stop and futher ahead in all things.

Note: I'm not saying a human can not beat them I'm saying they are wipping all the other AI's Hence game is not balanced. Balanced would mean other AI's could beat them sometimes.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I don't see how a 30% bonus to growth is "overpowering".

So instead of growing by 50 they grow by 65.

Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It's a compound interest problem. After 50 turns 1.03^50 = 4.38 1.04^50 = 7.1
After 100 turns its 18.2 vs 50.5 - after 2 years, the torians will have a 2.8 times as much population as the other AI civs, wicth a correspondingly higher tax base and thus production.
I get around it by keeping my approval at 100% for as long as possible, at least on my home planet, for the pop growth doubling effect. The AI isn't programmed to do that, I don't think.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Ah I never had a problem with the torians ... oh no I had trouble with the insect people.... they were always neck and neck with my research I've had some great wars with them though...
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Not only do they get planets faster but they get them filled up with population faster as well.
More pop = more tax = more research+production
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah, after my first two games with the beta, I stopped using the Torians and the Thalans as AI's, simply because they completely dominated everyone else (especially the Torians). Population growth bonuses definately need to be tweaked, or at least offset by corresponding disadvantages.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Actually, from my experience the reason it's overpowering is less because they are getting more taxes, and more because of their overwhelming influence very early. Basically it's goes like this:

Torians with a ton of people = Lots of Torian influence
Everyone else with less people = A lot less influence for everyone else.

Lots of Torian influence + less influence from others = a lot of defections really early (culture conquest is fast now).

Which in turns, gives them even more population to conquer the next guy. By the time you are ready to fight the Torians and the Thalans, those guys will have literally absorbed most of the other players near them just through cultural influence alone. They do fight, but they are never really exceptionally great at it. However, having grown this big, they can thoroughly wipe the floor with anyone else because of their sheer size and available troops (except for maybe you). It's a formula that I saw over and over again, and have sickeningly great success in copying using pop growth bonuses (I would litterally absorb entire empires using "Don't Ask" without any work). In the end, I just got bored of fighting the people battle with those same two, so I just nerfed pop growth... lol. It gives the other races a chance.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Torians are definitely overpowered with the pop growth bonus, since it is exponential. However, so am I, with my own pop growth bonus.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
This explains why my custom race with 70% growth is just stomping all over the AI races in my Suicidal game right now. I haven't even broke a sweat and I've got all the AI on the ropes. The only race that comes close are the torians... I just totally overpopulated everyone else, got colonies faster and rolled over. I think I'll start over... this is too easy!

--Brad
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
those guys will have literally absorbed most of the other players near them


Ouch!
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If you look at the default abilities of the various races, Torians are actually SHORTCHANGED; if you choose the Torians, you can actually make them STRICTLY BETTER. The Torians are the only race for which this is possible.

Obviously the ability point costs will have to be altered to make Population increase bonuses more costly. All races need to be fixed so that you can modify abilities without losing each race's unique features.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah I may not even finish my current huge and start a new popgrowth. I think Im playing with some bs econ military production race. I am overpowering everyone but the slow pop growth emans I have to pause because I run out fo troops. Plus all these planets are nuts! I got a central cluster of 80 planets all together LOL
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I've noticed none of that, and I play as the Drath on tough. One thing I did notice however, EVERYBODY refused to expand. Every ship in the game was built by me, and sold to other races. The dark Yor alone broke the trend, with 1 defender. And, in the fifth year, I discovered a star system right next to the Torians uncolonised, with 4 planets, one gem (17). I then found another system next to that. I stomped the map in a few hours flat, in the end merely clicked turn to get new techs and buildings. The pop growth doesn't overpower them, but why the hell was every majors ship throughout the game of Drath origin? the only exception was when the good old Altarians (planet stealers) got assasinated, those puny vengeance sniper ships. TOOK ON MY STARBASES.
This was tough, I mean what the hell? Why are they being so stupid compared to pre-beta?
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
What size maps?


Huge / Gigantic - Suicidal diff. The Torians were about the 2nd race to be eliminated in the first game (huge), and I'm making sure they'll be the first elimination in the current game (gigantic - and I'm not using any pop growth bonus). Maybe they'll be a bigger pain if they get a really good starting position, but then so can any AI (just watch the Drengin go now when they get lucky).

Note to Stardock - the 70% pop growth bonus pick is way too powerful now for a human player, I think you need to do the same to it as you've done to diplomacy
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
i'm seeing something interesting in my first beta game:

the Torians rose up in population, then leveled off, and then took a hit... probably somebody took a big planet or something.. then continued level.

then, about the same time the Torians were stalling, the Altarians rose up, passed the Altarians, then started to fall. i think they had Aphrodesiacs on their side.

meanwhile, i've been crusing along, feeling Very Frisky, and have just overtaken them in the population lead.

in my last game, before the beta, the Torians did just what was described above as "post beta": grow to an alarming level of influence, based just on population, and become more unstoppable with each defection.

luckily in that game, the last enemy surrendered (to me) before it was too late, giving me the diplomatic win... but that's not the point.

point is i saw behavior pre-beta that is being described as a "balance problem" in the beta.

anyway, i'm reserving judgement until i play some more...