Promoting Alienation (pun??)

Getting that old inhuman feeling

from GalCiv2 Forums
Greetings to all. This is my first post on this forum, and I would like to apologize in advance if my newness shows. I have attempted to follow discussions on this site since I first learned of the upcoming sequel to the game that, IMHO, pulled the space 4x genre's tuckus out of the incinerator (kudos to Draginol et al for your outstanding and clearly loved work in the past -- devs like you (pl.) keep my hopes ever new.) Regrettably I'm not involved in the upcoming beta, but believe me if I wasn't trying to finish my MA thesis, I'd be on it like white on rice.

That said, I would like to pose a question to the GalCiv 2 team (and please forgive me if this is "old hat," but I've so far been unable to find a related topic on these forums. Bump me if necessary,) concerning the development of playable alien races. I've always enjoyed being able to don the mantle on inhumanity in games such as this, and I was overjoyed to learn that GC2 will allow this option. But in doing so, I can't help but wonder -- what steps are being made to make these non-human races -feel- different from playing as the good ol' Terran Alliance?

Granted, from what I've seen so far it looks to me as though the nine established races in the game have their own racial traits, appearance, and ship designs (once again, most impressive,) and these factors will no doubt add a flavor to gameplay. But what about other factors? Will all races ultimately use the same criteria for determining planet desirability? In the first game, a standardized planet class system was fine, as you were restricted to one race which of course sought planets with Earth-like environments. But aliens, OAIMHO, should be alien -- therefore, maybe they require vastly hotter or colder environs, or a different chemical composition in the air. Thus a planet which has a high class for a Human civilization (or Altarian, be fair) might prove uninhabitable to a chlorine-breathing race.

One user previously posed the question on another thread asking for anything that MOO3 (ugh) did right, and I thought that this was one of a very few areas in which the game excelled. By having different "target environments" for the various races, you had entire civilizations competing for the same space but different resources. It added a distinctly alien feel to it.

This is just one example of my concern list. Ultimately, I feel certain that I will like the finished product, and that the way the game is progressing suggests that each player's style will depend upon tech-tree choices and overall gameplay. Yet I do hope that the races themselves each have their own distinct personality and flavor, and aren't simply there for eye candy (Draginol, in one of your recent posts you mentioned a concern over the built-in reaction the Torians should have to the Drengin -- I believe I'm thinking along the same lines.)

Thank you for your patience with this long post. I would appreciate any info or feedback from either the development team or the beta testers (lucky bastards! Argh, thesis!)

Best,
KIY
ideas
9,820 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
Sorry to drop another line in here, but to further potential discussion, consider the Yor Collective. Here we have a non-organic lifeform (at least they were heralded as such in GC1.) Will they, for instance, really need to worry about food production or Soil Enrichment techs? Will their production scores fall to reflect the time and resources used to maintain, repair, and replicate them? Food for thought....

Once more, Best,
KIY
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
Take a look at this dev journal if you haven't already, it talks a bit about this.

Link

In terms of the "desirable habitats" GC2 does not draw any distinctions and assumes that all races basically want the same sort of worlds. There reasons for it such as promoting competition for the best worlds so its not just a 'we cant afford to develop that' thing. Systems like that require the AI to react intelligently to it and so on.

I suppose on the food point, just think of it as a Yor equivalent. Maintenance facilities or if they have biological components some sort of 'nursery' incubators.
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Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
An excellent point, Ugleb. I admit I hadn't really thought about the food issue that way -- sometimes I'm too damn literal, I guess. Thank you. I'll be sure to check that out link out and reply with any lingering questions/concerns. Still, I'm eager to see what steps are taken to add species (race seems to imply too much genetic similarity, I dunno) identity to the game. After all, in an ideal situation, I would like to be able to implement the identical gameplay style, tactics, and research with two distinct species and feel as though I'm getting a similar yet fundamentally unique result with each (perhaps something like convergent evolution, like the eyes of humans and octopi -- they are incredibly similar in form and function, yet were formed from vastly different original tissues. Or to paraphrase a Japanese author, "Think of what the modern fountain pen would be like if it had been invented by a brush-script using culture.") I'm not sure how one would go about adding the subtle differences, but I feel confident that they will be there. Otherwise, it all feels like a revisitation of "guy in a rubber suit" sci-fi / fantasy gaming -- you may look, sound, and move strangely, but everything still feels essentially humanized (this opens up all sorts of philosophical argument, I'm sure, about subjectivity and whatnot, but hey, I just want to go "Oooooo! That's too damn KEW-well!")

What are some other ways in which the alien races can be made to feel unique from each other? If anyone has any thoughts, I'd be interested to hear them.
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
All the races have default racial traits (these can be changed of course). Some are better at social construction, some are better at building stronger ships, or whatever. Also, like in GC1, there are political parties that alter your abilities. Behavioural issues occur with the different races as well, but that's more about the AI than you playing an alien. I can't think of anything else, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist...
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
King In Yellow, I know its a good idea and it has been used in games such as Space Empires and MOO, But in Galactic Civilizations (I,II) The only factor affecting planet desirability is its planet quality, Basically it means that the better the planet quality, The bigger the planet is, Less severe weather, More abundant minerals (you get the idea) and I would imagine that say, A class 0 planet would be a moulten slag of lava and so on and so forth up untill you reach class 15 which has a sort of breathable atmosphere and not much in the way of rescourses..

Anyways, What I am trying to say is that in Galactic Civilizations planetary desire is not set up to be different for anybody, Planets all mean the same thing to everyone.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I understand what you're saying, to be sure. Still, is it so wrong to hope that *someone* might find a molten slag world a nice spot for a summer home? Maybe that *would* add too much complexity -- after all, MOO 3 tried something along those lines, and look where it wound up. (Regrettably I've never played Space Empires... would you recommend it?)

Oh well. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking, but part of me really wants to get beyond the numbers. Ultimately I think I'm looking for a sense of culture, not only in backstory, but also seen in game play. For instance, if I choose a race (or engineer one to my own specifications) with high bonuses to combat statistics and military production, I'd like to see my populace getting a little miffed if their leader takes them along a pacifist route to galactic conquest (lowered morale and whatnot.) And once again, I'm not suggesting the implementation of these ideas, but merely throwing them out for discussion and thought. Sometimes it's nice to see where the community's thoughts run on certain subjects.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Or maybe *I'm* the alien, sick of the human masquerade! You never know with computers these days...
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
I have wondered if its a major feature for an expansion pack, but then it would drastically alter gameplay. Might work, might not.

I'm talking about racial habitats btw.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
You know, I'm pretty sick of this human masquerade too... Let's throw off the shackles of humanity and be our alien selves! Or... well, in my case elven.

Anyway, I like your ideas. The only games I've ever seen that implemented racial planetary differences are old and primative (Pax Imperium 1, Spaceward Ho). Both were very simplistic in design, thus able to implement a complex feature like that. They had -no- tech tree, decent graphics for the time, but that was 10-15 years ago, and absolutely no back story. And in the case of Spaceward Ho, it was completely silly with it's sound effects and much of it's graphics (western themed hats on your colonies, "Yah!" sound effect when you sent a ship somewhere). It would be nice to see a new game come out with similar features, but I doubt we'll see it soon.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
My goodness, I actually OWNED that game! (Spaceward Ho, that is) I loved it. I'd totally forgotten it, and yet for some reason I clearly remember M.U.L.E. (and the hunt for the fierce Mountain Wampus!) I agree that we could use another tongue-in-cheek game like Spaceward Ho, and sadly I too feel that it will be a long time coming. For some reasons, it's always the old silly games that bring the big smile to my face -- Lemmings, Scorched Earth, M.U.L.E.... ah, levity.

You're also spot on when you mention that complex features like the ones we've discussed are best implemented into simple design frames. For proof of that, just look at MOO 3 -- rendered all but completely unplayable by its over-intricate design elements and arrogantly high aspirations (and the massive automated AI overcorrection to their hubris.) GC, on the other hand, always felt at its core to be based on solid, simple rules and accessible gameplay -- a good foundation for the intricacy of its tech tree and diplomacy. With a strong core, is it too unrealistic to imagine that these and other ideas might be carried with aplomb?

Besides, sometimes it's the little details that really add distinctness and flavor to a game -- things like the "Yah! *crack*" from Spaceward Ho! or the multiple character models from MOO 2 (scientist, spy, soldier) or the superb voice work in Planescape: Torment and Sacrifice (one of the all-time greatest underrated RTS's)

Plus there's always the possibility of race-specific technology, as has been discussed elsewhere. Only time will tell.
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
I would seriously reccomend SE, SE 3 and 4 are great games..

Anyway, About the yor needing food?

Quoth he who wrote the galactic databanks:

In an ironic twist, while the Yor do not age, they were designed to make use of biological-based energy sources -- food -- to replenish their energy reserves



So the Yor cannot make their homes on moulten slag..
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Quite. I just read that databank a little while ago, but I wasn't about to own up to my faux pas.

Still, that does definitively settle that, as well as lend credence to that old threat about "liquifying your remains to spread over our toast." (Coming from a toaster, no less.)