P2P programs (well, most) are perfectly legal. It's what you do with them that aren't. In MY opinion I think that record companies should let people share their music . . . to a limit. Companies should at least allow free downloads of 2 or more songs from their artists. Even more so for those new groups out there! How are you going to get into a band if all you have to listen to is 20 or 30 second previews on [insert generic online music retailer here]?
*BUT* if you choose to go to the Dark Side of the Net and use file-sharing, go with LimeWire.
Kazaa sucks.
eDonkey is okay.
Warez P2P doesn't really do much . . .
and Ares is DEAD
those are the only ones I've really tried.
And there's always Bittorrent!
*BUT* There ARE some artists out there who allow free downloads. Check out Download.com's music section.

Link
you can find some real goodies in there.

Who is bold enough to admit they HAVE used illegal means of downloading?

I have - Kaza

I agree with you KoolKat2500.
Speaking as a musician (a poor one I hasten to add), I think that record companys should allow at least 2 free downloads.
At the end of the day it shouldn't be about the record companys but the people like us who make the music.
I didn't become a musician to become rich, but because it's who I am.
And if I can make someone happy with it (whether they paid for the privilege or not), that's payment enough for me

Man citizen Musical-Mayhem... Amen... as a fellow musician I can find no more true words then that... Have we all forgot why art is made... what purpose it serves to a culture or society... Plus any real musician knows... artist don't make dirt from CD sales record companies do... If you want to support your favorite band... give there music to everyone you know... and pay to go see one of thier shows... you then gave them as much money as they would get from selling 10 of thier CD's... DON'T BE FOOLED! THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE ARTISTS!!!! NOT AT ALL! IT'S ABOUT CORPERATIONS AND THIER DESIRE FOR EVERY PENNY THEY CAN PULL FROM YOUR BODY BEFORE YOUR SIX FEET UNDER!!!!

The Internet has always been a file sharing network, and has been used as such legitimately for decades now. The music industry suddenly sees a revenue stream that it didn't have before and decides that it automatically has the right to take the Internet away from us, and give it back in a form that they can profit from. Stand up for your rights, folks. These companies have a business model which is broken; to protect it they seek to take our freedoms. If I set up shop in the public square and left an unattended fruit stand with a basket for people to leave their money in exchange for fruit, sadly I would probably return at the end of the day to find the fruit gone and the money basket empty. Would that give me the right to put a gated fence around the square? No. I naturally would be expected to find a better business model. Stealing is wrong, of course, but I've got no sympathy for you if you need to appropriate the public commons in order to stay in business. Find another line of work and quit whining. Musicians and other creative artists no longer have to buy the line that the media companies have been trying to sell them, that royalties are the only way to make a living. As a musician myself, I have earned more income as a result of the free distribution of my music than I ever would have otherwise. I don't have an easy answer for those of you who choose to be software creators, but let me remind you: you chose this business knowing full well that your work would be easily distributed without your consent, so don't come to me asking me to give up my freedoms because you are finding it tough to hang on to your wallet in a crowd of pocketpickers. Personally, I value your work, and I hope that you find a way to be fairly compensated for it, but don't take my Internet away from me in the process.

P2P networks provide their users with something the rest of the software industry never did, thanks to whatever idiotic beliefs that run them.

- Software available world wide on launch day
- Software that did not require cd-in-drive after installation, that could be taken as many backups of as you wanted, that you could run on more than 1 of your home computers (if you had such), that did not install drivers to ruin your system
- Games at the 'click' of a button.

P2P networks could have been a business opportunity if companies tried to work with 'them' instead of trying to sue away innovative and exciting technology.

A downloaded copy is not theft or lost revenue, its a business opportunity.

A downloaded copy is not theft or lost revenue, its a business opportunity.

hahaha...chuckle..chuckle..chortle...smirk...snigger...guffaw

I believe he meant it was a possible business opportunity before said companies try to take down torrent software programmers.

I must admit he does have a point. Software companies could direct sell to custmoers much like stardock does, only with torrent files. You can encrypt a torrent file to only be allowed by one user if you do it right. The opportunity is there, no one makes use of it though.

In addition: If the downloaded copy proves to be a good demo for said product, chances are that the downloader will either purchase it, or the next game in the series. Possibly also the entire back catalogue of games [As has occured with books and audio cd's].

Quality sells by itself and does not require lockdowns.

I agree with Draginol. I am currently finishing my last year at college to become a software developer and know that any intellectual property that I develop in the future will possibly be pirated. Although, I know that there are people that simply just cant afford to buy certain applications/games/music, I am one of those people. So, if there is no way they could buy it, the owner of the property isn't really losing anything in my opinion and my tone won't change when it's my property being shared. There are people like me that are living on top ramen and water to get through school that would download steak ,shrimp, and beer if it were possible, but would gladly pay for it the minute they had the money. I don't know what my point is but maybe someone else does.

Citizen Fizzle1203537 ....possibly...

My father [now 87] once said..."if you are not a socialist in your youth then you have no heart....but if your not a capitalist when you're older then you have no brain."

I kinda like that one....

I found it to be a bad ruling, because it dont make sense.

The ruling states that those who "promote" p2p can be sued. WTH is that supposed to mean really. Nobody should be pleased with this ruling at all, because it is a BS ruling It can be fought from all angles in court, It doesnt mean a damn thing at all to Kazaa, and it seems like this ruling was made to satisfy people's whims.

If the courts really cared, they would have made the ruling affect whoever PROFITS from illegal P2P distrobution.

The other day I was looking around to see how widely available our stuff is from thieves.  I found Orion icons up there.  What's the excuse to pirate Orion icon's?  They're what? $8? The effort involved in creating thousands of icons should be obvious to anyone and yet there they were, people pirating them.

But that's not what this ruling was about.  It's not about piracy on its own.  It's about scumbag companies making a profit from piracy.

People like Bram Cohen disgust me.  They make programs that are primarily used to enable people to steal (spare me the occasioanl legitimate use of it, the issue isn't P2P, it's the IMPLEMNTATION of open ended P2P that I have an issue with) and then they put in nags to donate money to them via paypal.  What is their excuse for needing donations? What's their "overhead"? It's PEER file sharing for crying out loud.  But there he is, profiting from something used primarily to steal from OTHER people.  That's the sort of thing that bugs me. 

There's a big difference between someone pirating an MP3 and someone making money helping people pirate that same MP3.

The other day I was looking around to see how widely available our stuff is from thieves. I found Orion icons up there. What's the excuse to pirate Orion icon's? They're what? $8? The effort involved in creating thousands of icons should be obvious to anyone and yet there they were, people pirating them. But that's not what this ruling was about. It's not about piracy on its own. It's about scumbag companies making a profit from piracy. People like Bram Cohen disgust me. They make programs that are primarily used to enable people to steal (spare me the occasioanl legitimate use of it, the issue isn't P2P, it's the IMPLEMNTATION of open ended P2P that I have an issue with) and then they put in nags to donate money to them via paypal. What is their excuse for needing donations? What's their "overhead"? It's PEER file sharing for crying out loud. But there he is, profiting from something used primarily to steal from OTHER people. That's the sort of thing that bugs me. There's a big difference between someone pirating an MP3 and someone making money helping people pirate that same MP3.

Yeah um i dont want to sound rude or anything but i do feel the need to tell you to zip it. I doubt you even used bit torrent or know how it works. Bittorrent is THE way to share linux distributions securely and effectively. Getting on Bram for making the protocol and the client is like getting on the ARPANET developers for making what we know as the internet today. He never promoted illegal file sharing, and bittorrent was never made in the first place for illegal file sharing, and at the moment it isn't used primarily for illegal file sharing. Most illegal file sharing is done over gnutella/fastrack/edonkey networks.....AND those clients have more legal stuff being shared than illegal stuff. But one thing for sure, the legitimate use of bittorrent far exceeds the "occasioanal" use that you bluntly mention.
He made a real good program and system and has every damn right to ask for a donation, which are VERY easy to turn off I might add. I have no idea how linux would spread without Bram Cohen.

Oh and if you are angered by the implementation of open ended P2P (is there another kind?!!?! wouldnt really be P2P unless it was open) then dont use the internet because of its openness. God forbid that somebody is whining about how open it is, rather then the copyright issues.

Considering I can get two very large pizzas with cheese-crusted crusts, and a decent amount of toppings for $9, yes, $20 is a lot.

Remember, when you talk about the internet, you have to keep in mind the prices of goods in places OTHER than the US.

In any case, no matter what happens to P2P, we'll have more people complaining about matter replicators as "theft" in the future when we finally perfect that technology.

Citizen Ka806  ...... This Site....and this forum.... in which you spout your 'slant' on who should need to 'zip it' is brought to you [almost] wholely by the person you are telling to 'zip it'.

Without Stardock and its funding/coding/administration this site would not exist.....hence comments in #40 are pretty bloody relevent AND cogent.

If Frogboy deemed the Internet 'too open' he could help 'close it' a little by pulling the plug on this site.......gosh, you'd have to scurry off elsewhere to make your voice heard then, wouldn't you? 

Someone who actively participates within the skinning community on more levels than you could poke a stick at really has a fundamental cogniscence about what it is to be a businessman within the skinning community, being one of the first, and arguably most significant.  If he says 'Bram Cohen' is a low-life it probably means he's a low-life, and you can take that as gospel.

But nay......everyone has a right to be 'heard'....even those who bump into walls.....

"The other day I was looking around to see how widely available our stuff is from thieves. I found Orion icons up there. What's the excuse to pirate Orion icon's? They're what? $8? The effort involved in creating thousands of icons should be obvious to anyone and yet there they were, people pirating them."

Urm, is this the part where I'm not supposed to mention that Wincustomize is stuffed full of trademarked and ripped icons that have (barely) been modded by "skinners"? Or not? I can't remember...

"and then they put in nags to donate money to them via paypal. What is their excuse for needing donations? What's their "overhead"?"

What's your overhead giving away stuff on Wincustomize? Evidently millions of people downloading a program costs something, even if it costs the company nothing thereafter.

"There's a big difference between someone pirating an MP3 and someone making money helping people pirate that same MP3."

And an even larger difference between those and Asian organized crime that pirates whole CDs hundreds a day and sells them all over the world. Should we make the copying machines they use illegal to own?

I have a problem with villifying an object or a technology because of how people use it. I understand that you are saying that implementation is the problem here, and honestly you're probably right. What this does, though, is creates a chilling effect on P2P as a whole.

I'd feel much better about it if the government wasn't being lobbied into a stance on P2P by people who'd rather strongarm politicians than actually secure their own product. What if the record company had tried to outlaw, say, flea markets back in the 1980's when cassette tape piracy was so big? Now, though, they can take down internet communities simply because abusive people use them.

Jafo can laugh the "insignificant" numbers off if he likes, but usually as a culture we don't villify a resource simply because it is abusable. Now, though, we seem to want to treat society as if it is a kindergarden class, and get rid of anything pointy, or anything we might choke ourselves on. Sad way to look at humanity.

As for bittorrent, I would think that small companies would start embracing it as a way to reduce the cost of distributing their software. I have downloaded Linux images from it, and I have seen trailers and other media distributed on it.

bittorrent is a golden example of how p2p could work with business, and possibly an example of how business could thoughtlessly torpedo a technology that could work for them. The idea that bittorrent is just another 'napster' style piracy program overlooks the massive amounts of legitimate use there is, both private and commercial.

What BakerStreet said.

There is a reason why even Microsoft is embracing BitTorrent technology.

Citizen Ka806 ...... This Site....and this forum.... in which you spout your 'slant' on who should need to 'zip it' is brought to you [almost] wholely by the person you are telling to 'zip it'. Without Stardock and its funding/coding/administration this site would not exist.....hence comments in #40 are pretty bloody relevent AND cogent. If Frogboy deemed the Internet 'too open' he could help 'close it' a little by pulling the plug on this site.......gosh, you'd have to scurry off elsewhere to make your voice heard then, wouldn't you? Someone who actively participates within the skinning community on more levels than you could poke a stick at really has a fundamental cogniscence about what it is to be a businessman within the skinning community, being one of the first, and arguably most significant. If he says 'Bram Cohen' is a low-life it probably means he's a low-life, and you can take that as gospel. But nay......everyone has a right to be 'heard'....even those who bump into walls.....

What he did in the past is not relevant to what where talking about now. I thank Frogboy for his contributions, but that does not give him any sort of immunity as to what he says in this forum.
If he says things like that without knowing what is being said, then he will here it from me. Without paying customers (which I am myself) for products from stardock, YOU guys wouldn't exsist, so dont go around thinking your better than me, cause i really dont appreciate it. Just because he contributed so much to the site, doesnt mean hes just right, or that he knows more than me.

Frogboy DOES NOT know how and why bittorrent was created, so he shouldnt be talking about its creator like that.

Theres no need for you to respond for him. If he is offended by what I said, he can say so himself.

Urm, is this the part where I'm not supposed to mention that Wincustomize is stuffed full of trademarked and ripped icons that have (barely) been modded by "skinners"? Or not? I can't remember...

Yup mabey the "funders/coders/administrators" can take their "I know more than you attitude" and address issues like that...Or tell me yet again that this situation is different from the current intellectual property situation and that they are doing no wrong.

Yeah um i dont want to sound rude or anything but i do feel the need to tell you to zip it. I doubt you even used bit torrent or know how it works. Bittorrent is THE way to share linux distributions securely and effectively. Getting on Bram for making the protocol and the client is like getting on the ARPANET developers for making what we know as the internet today.

It's always amusing when some ass comes on and tries to assume that those he disagrees with are ignorant.  Um duh, ya, that bittorrent stuff is, um, so complicated.  The only thing stupid I see here is you comparing ARPANET with Bit Torrent.  P2P technology is not the issue.  But the open ended search engines that make use of it that cause a problem.

Let me put it another way: There's nothing wrong with web pages in general right? But a website that provides links to cracks is a problem.  The Bittorent technology unto itself is fine.  But Bram's beg-ware website that searches through all the torrents out there is a problem because there's really little legitimate reason for such a search other than to enable much easier warezing.

If you have no idea how Linux would spread without it, well, I don't know what cave you've been living in. You certainly don't need a torrent search engine to install or "spread" Linux.

Great points Bakerstreet and Ka806.

Urm, is this the part where I'm not supposed to mention that Wincustomize is stuffed full of trademarked and ripped icons that have (barely) been modded by "skinners"? Or not? I can't remember...

By your logic, every fan site on the net should be closed down too.  WC doesn't contain, to my knowledge, any commercial (i.e. stuff that is for sale) copyrighted material.  We also protect people's intellectual property very aggressively.  We do, however, allow fan art. That is, someone who wants to make a Superman theme is free to do so.

In legal circles, there's a very big difference between what you're complaining about and software piracy.  Feel free to consult a lawyer on the issue if you'd like.

bittorrent is a golden example of how p2p could work with business, and possibly an example of how business could thoughtlessly torpedo a technology that could work for them. The idea that bittorrent is just another 'napster' style piracy program overlooks the massive amounts of legitimate use there is, both private and commercial.

Strawman argument since no one is saying the bittorrent program is a napster style program.  My complaint has to do with the torrent search engine Bram runs and begs for money on. 

BTW, WinCustomize costs about $200k to run each year.  Perhaps someone should put us in our place and start up a P2P based skinning site.  But in the meantime, spare me the strawman arguments.  Broadening my complaint to include the underlying technology is intellectually dishonest.

 

It's always amusing when some ass comes on and tries to assume that those he disagrees with are ignorant. Um duh, ya, that bittorrent stuff is, um, so complicated. The only thing stupid I see here is you comparing ARPANET with Bit Torrent. P2P technology is not the issue. But the open ended search engines that make use of it that cause a problem. Let me put it another way: There's nothing wrong with web pages in general right? But a website that provides links to cracks is a problem. The Bittorent technology unto itself is fine. But Bram's beg-ware website that searches through all the torrents out there is a problem because there's really little legitimate reason for such a search other than to enable much easier warezing. If you have no idea how Linux would spread without it, well, I don't know what cave you've been living in. You certainly don't need a torrent search engine to install or "spread" Linux.

Yeah Im pretty sure you have NO idea how bittorrent or its clients work. Thats all I have to say.