Editorial.....[part deux]

Posted on Skinbase....but reposted here to provide food for thought for those who may not go there all that often...

hobnobber...yes, basically all that is correct, though a more accurate estimate of those who contribute via skins, purchases, community input/interaction vs. those who only 'leech' for freebies is very much more than the ratio of 25 to 1....perhaps more in the realm of 2500 to 1....and that's the rub.
When skinning was in its infancy, say 5 years ago, it was all new and thrilling to everyone....now it has grown, not so much with newer apps coming on the scene on a daily basis...that was the 'norm' back in skinz.org [mk.1] days, but now the growth is in general interest/popularity, thanks to Microsoft's added awareness of the concept, with its visual styles, etc.
What you get now is many more 'users' but not a heck of a lot new blood in skinning as skinners as such....certainly not a comparable ratio to the popularity growth.
When once the skinners and their 'community' sites could foot the bill for all, as the majority were like-minded skinners themselves, now it's more a case of 'us and them'...the providers of product vs. the users of the product.
The dynamics have changed.  With this change comes commercial pressures on everyone involved.
New specifics require new handling.....people need to cater for the changes with methodology that makes the situation survivable or else viability suffers and the reality of the system falls apart.

Change can be horrid and unpalatable but may just be absolutely necessary and unavoidable.

Anyone involved in the game for long enough can see the writing on the wall....even since the dot-com failings of the likes of eFront that killed the first REAL skinning community we have been striving for sustainability.
Anyone with genuine heart-felt feelings for the skinning community as a whole will realise the necessity to not put heads in the sand and blindly hope life will magically go on as normal, but make a conscious effort to find a sustainable model.
Sure, many will arrive at alternate theories of a working model, but until tried no-one will be sure what actually will succeed or not.
All that can be done is to try our collective best, hence many soul-searching threads on the subject of 'the future of skinning' in one form or another on many/most sites.

Poor old Devart has a massive user-base and being a graphics site demands high bandwidth/server load as does any skinning site at their relative levels.

I remember what the world was like before skinning....[my first foray was with Dos GUI shells - pre Windows...then Win 3x and beyond] and would hate to see the whole skinning world fall apart due to ennui or apathy, hence the hands-on involvement.

Let's all look forward to skinning/GUI modification still being not just 'fun', but sustainable in another 5 years, or 50...


[Message Edited]
5,623 views 30 replies
Reply #1 Top
#96  by Citizen stardockjeff1 - 12/28/2003 12:05:01 AM
May I return to the topic? If what jafo says is true, then the commercial solution may be the only way to "save" the community. WC is conducting a poll on how much people would be willing to pay for a premium set of skins, icons, etc. The overwhelmingly favorite vote is "zero". So more and more folks will d/l the skins and use them, fewer and fewer people will make new skins or update existing ones, because why work at it yourself when you can get it for free? The existing library of skins won't become obsolete for a long time.

I'm a good example. About 3 weeks ago I saw a PC that was all dressed up like a Mac. I'd never seen anything like that and I wanted my PC to look like a Mac, too. So I went on a skin search and ended up here. During my search, I found lots of skins that almost did what I wanted, but none that did it all. So I bought Object Desktop and then I put bits and pieces of this one and that one together. But I didn't pay for any of 'em. That doesn't seem right, especially since I plan on having my computer decorated like this for a while. I've got an email out to the author of one particularly good theme offering a donation. IMHO, unless more people are willing to pay for really good themes/skins, there won't be an incentive for the best skinners to keep at it.

Jeff
Reply #2 Top
#97  by  ½Crazy Travis - 12/28/2003 12:11:43 AM
I can't exactly remember how I got here, but once i found here i stayed. And I agree that "commercial skins" will lower the number of downloads it won't too much. Mostly the freeloaders will quit buying. I think a time trial for a skin would be nice. Use it for a day or week and if you like it you can buy it or it goes bye bye. Thanks for getting back on topic.
Reply #3 Top
#98  by Scribe Apocalypse_67 - 12/28/2003 12:18:31 AM
That is true Jeff, but sit back for a moment and contemplate this.
A new skinner will come into the skinning community eager to share his work for 'free' and with lots of enthusiasm as he/she is learning the skinning process. After a while that skinner will sit back and think about how much time effort and money he/she is spending just to see a bunch of people download with out making any real contribution to the skinning community.
That skinner will find him/her self making less skins to share and at the same time figuring out a way to profit from his work and effort.
So relatively, those that want everything for free without giving anything back will pave the road to a more commercial way of distributing skins.

Reply #4 Top
#99  by Citizen digital_trucker - 12/28/2003 12:21:02 AM
I disagree somewhat on the idea that 'the best skinners won't continue to do it for free'. Skinners will skin. The real problem is the bandwidth that is consumed by the thousands of folks who don't skin but want something different than their next-door neighbor. Charging for access is the only solution to that problem.
I don't believe that pay-for skins will ever enjoy a widespread user base. Certainly suite packs will be something of an exception, but the majority of users will be content to purchase a site subscription and leave it at that. I also think that most users won't protest at being charged for the privelege of having access to a library of skins. Some will, but they'll prove to be nothing more than a very vocal minority. Personally, I think that the download limit for non-subscribers is set way too high as it is. Instead of having a size limit, I think that a quantity limit would be better. Say 3 free downloads out of each category...after that, you have to subscribe. That will automatically weed out the ones who aren't likely to come back anyway, and will force the ones who want to return regularly to ante up for the privelege
Reply #5 Top
#100  by Scribe Apocalypse_67 - 12/28/2003 12:37:16 AM
Digital. All skinners will continue to share their work for free, but the amount of skins will drop considerably. Click on any real good skinner's name and browse thru his/her gallery and you will notice how much work they are sharing now a days in comparison to when they first started. You will also notice that most of the good skinners have gone on their own to a more commercial way of distributing their work. They still come once in a while and upload a skin/theme for free such as Mormegil and Adni did with the Christmas theme, but how many other good skinners have uploaded in recent months?
People that really appreciate the work that goes into making these skins would not mind a pay subscription for the privilege to get premium skins. Those that voice for free stuff will be left out and in do times will see their way into the loop.
Let’s face it; you can only give out so many things for free before you eventually find the need to charge.
Reply #6 Top
#101  by  goodmorphing - 12/28/2003 12:46:38 AM
Frogboy used to have a 'story' about supply and demand. It had something to do with a party (thrown by George), and how people liked to come. But they had a hard time agreeing to contribute to the party and George was going broke...


Not exactly the story. Does anyone have a copy of that text? I thought the example was rather good...
Reply #7 Top
My thread is back on track....not bad....7 out of 100 actually were on topic...
Reply #8 Top
Question.---If a skinner uploads a suite ie(blind, logon,wall,icons,cursor,WMP,object dock and sysmetrix, where would the pieces go?All jumbled in a new library or to the libraries that they always go with some kind of lock that the second level suibscribers can open to download it? I think that with a duel level subscription the bandwidth will not lessen. A pay per suite or skin, the bandwidth would go down as people will be choosey as to what they select.

The skinners will not quit making free skins. It might appear that they have slowed down, but it is taking longer to do a skin or suite.

100-200 skins or suites was mentioned in one thread. I feel that that number is not easily attained. Stardock would have to either have to contract with skinners to reach that number or promote a large number to master. A 100 skins or suites (as mentioned in a thread) might be reached but Iam wondering if that can be sustained over time, as each year a new set of premium skins/suites would have to be made.

Maybe it would be more feasible to go to the single subscription and have a section of premium skins/suites to buy.

As its taking longer and longer to do blinds and suites, the authors are uploading less than they have in the past.

Oh well, my nickle. Jafo, go easy on the spelling and sentence structure.



Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #9 Top
I think they should go to the same library and with somesort of small icon next to it sayaingg 'premium skin'
Reply #10 Top
100-200 premium skins will not be hard to obtain since there are far more number of skinners capable of creating outstanding skins, they are just not as active due to the reasons above. I’m pretty sure that if an opportunity is presented to profit a little from their work, there will be a lot more than 200 skinners willing to create premium skins. Not to mention the fact that this will encourage more people to take on the challenge to learn how to skin, which in return will bring more contribution to the skinning community.
Reply #11 Top
Ap_67, remember they have to have the rank of Master.So it doesn't matter how many would do it.Brad isn't going to make 200 promotions to master.



Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #12 Top
He would if it’s for a positive benefit. Remember he mentioned that in such case promoting to Master will be more ease. Or maybe create a new level between JourneyMan and Master
Heck, if I get the opportunity to get pay for my work, I'll pull 3 premiums a month
Reply #13 Top
Hum, 3 premiums a month. Must be talking about a blind and not a full suite. Still.



Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #14 Top
Apocalypse_67: It's not about quantity. Some skinners can make 2 skins during lunch time, but that doesn't mean they are any good.



Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #15 Top
#12 by Scribe Apocalypse_67 - 12/28/2003 11:26:51 AM

Heck, if I get the opportunity to get pay for my work, I'll pull 3 premiums a month



If I am going to pay for it, I would rather have Quality and not Quantity IMHO.




Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #16 Top
Not the point intended but we are not talking about quantity vs. quality. Im more than sure that any good skinner can pull a good skin in brief time. Also remember that not all premium work is a suite (wb,icons,cursor,od,wa,etc) some premium are just 1 application.
The 'Heck, if I get the opportunity to get pay for my work, I'll pull 3 premiums a month' comment was more of how much encouragement a person will have if there is compensation for his/her work.
I think is also safe to say that in the case of authors submiting premium skins, these skins will be moderated to ensure that the quality is good enough to be up on a premium gallery.




[Message Edited]
Reply #17 Top
Quality


yes but we must also consider one mans quality skin can be called crap by another man.

That is to say what defines quality? I personally dislike toon xp.

One mans trash is another tresure.

Just my 2 cents.
Reply #18 Top
I understand what you are talking about A_67. If I were a Skinner I would be encouraged if there was some compensation.(heck I would be encouraged just with the fact I could skin at all) I did not mean that you would crank them out to get paid, I just know that Quality takes time unless a person is superbly gifted in which case quanity is not an issue.



Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #19 Top
Exactly my point elvee
Reply #20 Top






Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #21 Top
Honestly, I don't mind supporting WC with premium skins once in a while *without* a kickback. Would give me an excuse to skin something ( Maybe even a Stardock product!!! )

Unfortunately after I asked about it several times on a previous thread I got no response.

Reply #22 Top
with regard to the poll question of paying a one of fee for 'x' premium skins, i cannot answer the poll.

the reason is that i have seen several premium suits, and many outstanding skins in my time here, but only a very tiny number of these skins are ones i personally can and do use on a regular basis.

perhaps my tastes are just odd in part though it is due to the way i use my computer, the programs i run, and the sort of requirements i have.

i am quite happy to pay for a skin or suite i really like and will use, but so far there has only been one such, which was the premium Oranda cursorXP set.

so, would i pay for 'x' premium skins, knowing from experience that none of them are likely to be used on my computer? no.

would i pay for a single premium skin i will use on my computer? yes

of course, i am not representative of the average WC visitor, but i suspect i am not alone in the fact that the bulk of items at WC hold very little real interest for me.

turning to the more general question of WC and premium skins, how many of you who have purchased WC subscriptions use either of the two premium skins that came with your subscription on a regular basis? i know i am not alone in thinking that these weren't the most compelling premium skins ever.

on top of this, for me there is often a conflict between a visually impressive (as in WOW, i will pay for that) skin and a functional skin you can live with day in and day out.


of course, it is far easier to point to possible problems than it is to offer up solutions.



Powered by SkinBrowser!
Reply #23 Top
I agree with feline.... i wouldn't pay for a whole mess of premium skins, knowing that I would only use maybe one or two, but i would possibly pay for a premium suite that caught my eye. The problem there is, how much would you then charge? Of course, I am dirt poor, playing on an antique 'puter( anything over a year qualifies there ) and the cheapest ISP I can find. So for me, free is even better.

(I would love to learn how to skin, but am fearful of screwing something up, and crashing my poor 'puter, call me a chicken, but my brother-in-law gets tired of "helping" me fix my messes Must find a good tutor to help me I guess.)

Reply #24 Top
I use xpaugustus now and then. Right now I imported a msstyle from chaninja thats suiting my tastes. I don't know that I'd pay for a single skin unless it was verrrry good. There are so many skins that are free that 'premium skins' will have to become better then they already are.
Reply #25 Top
I would pay for a "package". It could be a themed package (color, shapes, mood, season, etc.). It might include some blinds, object bars, desktops, sounds, cursors, icons and maybe a full theme or two. If these were released quarterly I would subscribe.

I don't mind paying for "extra" skins or cursors that I might never use as long as I knew that there was at least something valuable in the purchased package for me. One might equate it to buying a computer program with tons of features; some will use these, some will use those but very rarely will anyone use all of them.

The point is that these "packages" would become part of my personal library, available to me when I wanted a change in functionality or mood. And the fact that they would be "premium" would most likely mean that I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time tweaking them to get them "just right".

Jeff



Powered by SkinBrowser!