Like I said the current lists do not aid new skinners, nor do they help bringing creativity back.

/me just wants to give skinners (new or experienced) a little attention on this site.

The site works fine if you want to download the latest and greatest skins. The current lists help them to make a choise. Downloaders can sort the skins anyway they want. Nothing wrong with that. I feel this should go on like that.

Users can get help if they post their question on the message board. KarmaGirl and a lot of others make sure those questions are answered. Nothing wrong with that either.

The message board is also being used for entertainment and to socialize. That's OK with me too.

Skinners can upload their skins and frankly that is all they can do on this site. Now this worries me. Like I said before times have changed and so are the ways skinners work. You cannot change how they work, but you can help them in their creative process. The Experimental section and the HotList would just be an aid. Nothing more, nothing less.

Some skinners feel that they should be number one (and of course it is great if your skins are rewarded by high download counts and ratings), but not all skinners feel that way. A lot of skinners skin because they love to do it. Some others see it as an art form. Every skinner may have his or her own reason why to skin.

It is hard to get even attention for this thread, because skinners are a minority. Lately we have seen posts about hijacking the topic in threads. I would go a step further. I feel that lately the message board is completely hijacked by nonsense, politics and religion. Interesting and fun subjects (that should be there to stay), but they have nothing to do with skinning. It will drive skinners away from sites like these.

Maybe we should organize the message board in subjects. In that way I don't feel like threads are hijacked (as apposed to topic hijacks). It is done on other sites and I think it works much better than having a message board like we have here.

I am just trying to find ways to help skinners in their work they enjoy and the skins they give us for free.

If you think about it then it is an investment to new great and creative skins in the future.

/me is already thinking about his next new post to "bump" this thread. Another new idea will be hard to find.

I'm right behind the concept of getting the 'new' skinner into the spotlight....one way or another...

It's always important for the 'veteran' skinners to be aware of those new to the scene...that there ARE people totally unaware of what really has gone before and are blundering around in their relative 'dark', when others have a torch..

/me lights Jafo's torch.

Now, lets see if that helps.

Good point

HUM

I would say that it's a great idea.

»"That was the newbie jitters. Once you uploaded a few walls you calmed down didn't you Lady Akasha? And you became accepted in no time. Now people want to be like you. " #22 by JourneyMan WOM - 5/2/2003 3:14:43 PM

Well yes I have 'calmed down' since then however. I still get a bit of 'jitters' every time I upload one But that is because I still consider myself a minor in comparison to some of the others here. Though I will say that I very well remember that first upload, and how warm and welcoming the folks here were. Which makes a HUGE difference. Now if we added an extra spotlight on the newbies I think it would make it all the better. I know even I look at that Top Authors list and think "I'll get on there...one day..." While it is without question daunting, it's more inspiring,and it pushes me harder, for some it may just be daunting.

I try to the best of my ability to help newcomers as much as I can in the sense of, when they email me, with questions and the 'how can I start?' trying to answer questions as well as I can. And I even took it a step further and prepared a tutorial for the new to Bryce,as I totally understand how it is to look at these images and think "I want to make this... I think I could, but how do I start?"

As for people wanting to be like me...That is such a kind thing to say, but I still can't picture that.

Lady Alasha: That is what I mean. You are willing to help out. So are most other skinners. It would be so much easier to have something like the Experimental Section. Not only new skinners, but experienced skinners still learn new things every day. The post of pjpowell is a good example of that.

Tutorial section would benefit many including me, especially for WB skinning etc

MadIce: Oh the experimental section again I think is brilliant, it's something I myself would take advantage of as there is so much I want to learn. I would love that.

i think something that ties both the experimental section and helping out new skinners is the fact that most of us made are fist skin by disecting one of our favorites, then we over wrote that, it is easy to fall into a pattern. A new feature is added and we incorporate in but I think we are pretty much stuck into our pattern/style still, then again maybe not but it would still be fun

I like the idea of rookie of the day or week Information seems to be at a premium so more tuturals and FAQs would be a welcome addition.

What we need is 2 Top Authors lists...1 for the Experienced and one for the newbies like me.

If thats gonna become complicated or whatever then just stop the download count altogether then all the petty squabling will have no choice but to end.

To me it seems the list is contributing to peoples ego rather than confidence to continue and grow.

No one new can compete with the downloads being raked in everyday by 'experienced' and changing the way things are counted are just annoying the people who should be top of the list.

Just entering a vicious circle that has to be looked at and ended.

Dark Mist: Yes. That is my idea too. That is why I started this thread in the first place. The Top Downloads/Authors list are nice, but these do not support new talent. And new talent is what we need for the future. Not just popular skins, but also good quality ones. That is why it would be great to combine it with the Experimental section.

[Message Edited]

But the way its going its simply 'kicking' out the old for the new.

Without the old then nothing will evolve from it, they are here to learn from not to try and beat or make them obsolete

Dark Mist: Yes. It was never my intension to replace the system. Just to add the HotList. You can read that in the top of this thread. The HotList was intended as a kind of an alternative. A list with tips. In the Netherlands we had such a system for music. One list showed the hits and the other showed the tips (new music that _may_ soon enter the list of hits).

On the other side, if skinners (like Adni) just skin to be in that list then I am not sure if that will contribute to the quality of the skins.

Also, it seems that the old list is not fair either. I read in another thread that some downloads are effected by bots and links to other sites. You can hardly call that fair, don't you?

Therefore I can see that the admins of this site want to change that system. They are NOT trying to make Adni less popular, but to make the list more fair.

The attempts are great, but there will still be ONE list and I am still concerned that new talent will have a hard time in such a list. But I must hold my breath, because it seems that the admins are still tweaking the system.

Another thing I am worried about is that it seems like few of the experienced skinners are interested in the "Experimental section". With a few exceptions they don't even care to visit this thread. Instead they rather keep busy with religion, politics, chocolate and preventing to kick Baker's ass.
[Message Edited]

I totally agree...That was my point earlier, If people start competing then quality will be ruled out for sheer speed on uploading and the moderators are gonna have a huge task dealing with drips and drabs piling in.

I would like to give my opinion here.

As you guys my notice, the top authors list have being changind lately and I am really happy to see that new names are poping up everyday. If you take a closer look on the today's list, you will see that it's majority is made buy new authors.

I really don't care if the skinners is a vet or a newbie, what I really like to see is good stuff, independently of who made it. Good stuff tends to be made by experiemnted authors but I have being seeing some very nice files from new names here and the new ranking system is proving that.


I also agree that if a new skinner, uploads a file and in the other day he sees his name there, he will be motivated to make another and better skin next time. I can tell you that for sure, because that was what hapenned to me when I began. Today I have didfficult on updating old skins, because my technich changed to much during the years, thanks to the motivation coming from users and other skinners.

If anyone needs some help, just drop me a line and I will be glad to help.

So what how is the count on the Top Authors worked out now?

https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=145209#145400

Frogboy informs us here about some of it.

Ahh yes

i missed this thread the first time round. personally, i think the title didn't help attract my attention

i think the idea of an experimental area is VERY good!

once, many months ago, i started work on a coolplayer skin. i have a line drawing outline (made in a CAD program) of the idea. it is quite a simple idea, and a bit different.

however, to turn the outline into a skin, i needed to learn how to colour it in so it looked nice.

i downloaded GIMP, installed GIMP, got totally confused, and lost interest *sigh*

i already knew how to use the CAD program, so the line drawing was easy

one of the main things that held be back (besides having no knowledge or skill with graphics programs) was the question: "what will i do with this skin outline?"

i still think the design idea is good (perhaps i am biased ) but there is a world of difference between that and a polished skin i would be happy to put my name to, even allowing for the fact it is my first skin.

so, if i had somewhere i could upload my initial sketches, thoughts, and silly attempts at colouring, to get helpful feedback from people who know something about this, that would mean a lot to me.

as an outsider with no experience with graphics, making a skin, any skin, is a vertical learning curve

the "ideas" behind the skin make sense. i have read and edited UIS files from windowblinds, teaching myself to change the colours and fonts with notepad. but what about the graphics? the overall look? making it all hang together?


at work i am a UNIX programmer, and at home i have OB, a 56k modem net connection, and an ISP who disconnects me every 2 hours. it is part of the terms and conditions, but i like to see it coming.

so, i have decided (perhaps a very ignorant and silly decision) to write a DX / OB plugin to tell me how long i have been online.

i have a plan for a standalone windows program to do this, and some outline code that works. i am only starting learning windows programming, so all of this is learning by trial and error.

so, again, an experimental place would be ideal. this time i am approaching from a totally different direction. i am hoping i can produce this plugin, but i suspect without help it will never get beyond my machine.

so, a potentially useful plugin (i am hanging onto hope since i don't know i cannot do this yet ) may be "lost" to the community.

i have been around this site for a while, but i wouldn't wish to impose on the busy skinners / developers with my "how do i write the hello world program in windows" level questions. MadIce has been kind enough to answer my vague initial questions, but if i need help with this in a while (quite possible ) i don't know where i would turn.

surely i am not the only person who has had these sort of experiences?

a place where the newbies and the experts can both go to simply try out wild and silly experimental ideas with no need to "polish", a place to get helpful feedback with no pressure, and simply a place to canvas opinion, surely this has a future???

/me would hate to see this idea, now i have discovered it, just die since people haven't read the thread, or considered it worth pursuing.

MadIce, i am not one of the experienced skinners you were hoping would support this idea, i am simply me. but on the plus side, i have bumped the thread quit a big bump post all in all

No, Feline, thanks for your comments! I hope the knife cuts on both sides (not sure if this is a proper English saying), because the Experimental section should be used by both new and experienced skinners.

BTW: There are several sites that can help you with Windows coding. How about this http://www.codeguru.com

[Message Edited]

thanks for the link, i will check that out.

/me makes a sweeping generalisation
it seems to me that the new skins for WB seem to be very "similar" of late. there seem to be very few off the wall ideas turning up.

perhaps i am just missing the really different ones. but i think it would be nice to see a bit more wild and outlandish experimentation.

those sort of skins aren't likely to get the massive downloads, so perhaps an experimental place would be a good place for the experienced skinners to just play around?

i remember a while ago (maybe a long time ago) Jafo uploading a WB skin who's main feature was that the minimise, maximise and close buttons were down the edge of the window. it was of course gray, so it wasn't a total experiment

as memory serves, he did this just because he could, and because the native XP skinning engine couldn't. /me thinks more off the wall experimentation would be fun!

is it just me, or are people starting to take skinning far to seriously these days? i just get the impression sometimes that skinners doing it just for the sheer joy of skinning are in the decline.

thinking back, remember the TV WB skin? that was different

/me is all in favour of anything that will encourage skinners to let their hair down and experiment wildly, with no regard for getting it accepted, or getting lots of downloads.

that just sounds like *fun*!

MadIce, thinking about my last post, a horrible thought has just occurred to me.

how could the admins stop an experimental area filling up with "bryce dolphins", etc?

i just don't want to see it used as a way to bypass moderation. you can hardly moderate "in development" skins that people are learning by making. but at the same time, you do need some standards, don't you?

i think if a sensible idea to handle that can be thought of, we should try bouncing up and down on a few admins to see what they think about this