Online copyrights...

How does it work? I've read a few articles refering to such... graphics, text, etc. But I'm not 100% sure how it works. How does "interlectrual property" become copyrighted? How long? etc. Explain?
8,718 views 38 replies
Reply #1 Top
"Intellectual Property" is an understood agreement that a work by an arist is their own, and they -only- hold the right to duplicate their own work without consent.
Reply #2 Top
It is copyrighted the instant you make it. No one can copy it or create derivative works without the artists permission. Small portions of the work can be used for journalistic or educational references, or as a parody of the original work, which is considered 'fair-use'.

If I recall the time limit used to be something like 70 years after the death of the original artist, though that was challenged by Disney and a few others recently and the US congress was given the right by the supreme court to extend that period. How long they can do it will be determined by further litigation, no doubt...

You can register a work with the office as well, for a fee. All the details for the US are here: http://www.loc.gov/copyright/
Reply #3 Top
oh.. how long? heh... technically an official copyright you must pay for, but if you have dated proof that your copy is the oldest (mail it to yourself and never open it), or hold the source file of creation (i.e. .PSD file - photoshop) then you can hold it if I'm not mistaken for a long long long long long time
Reply #4 Top
the 'dated proof' thing is an urban legend. Anyone can get a postmark an envelope, reopen it, stick something in it, and reseal it. I could go right now and postmark a hundred empty, unsealed manila envelopes and hang onto them so i could sue people later... You'd be laughed out of court.

All you can really do is register. You are protected regardless, whether you do or don't, it just makes it a lot easier to prove.
Reply #6 Top
You guys are talking about things are a larger scale. That I already know. I'm talking about small simple graphics, wallpapers, programs, etc. Something that most people wouldn't go all out to the Government to register.


Example, how are the works here copyrighted if they are?
Reply #8 Top
baker.....it's not an urban legend at all. It's been done, and successfully, too, long before Online graphics ever existed...
Reply #9 Top
inSANity, a created 'work' has its own inherent copyright, as it has a creator whose rights are that he/she controls/authorises exactly who can or cannot redistribute the work...
Reply #10 Top
So no paper or "legal" paper/text file needed to be created? Or anything to that nature? Create a work and it's yours, unless you give "permissions" otherwise?
Reply #11 Top
Yes...but if you wish for a 'stronger' hold on your rights, then registering the copyright enables the lazy legal system to go in to bat for you more easily, that is all...
Reply #13 Top
And after your attempts after you warn/notify him, he/she still ignore you, what could you do? Go to court over a wallpaper?
Reply #14 Top
Contact their ISP...they are breaking the law...
Reply #15 Top
Jafo: any idea when and where?

I have mailed many manila envelopes using only the little brass thingy to keep it shut. What would prevent me from reopening it at a later date, sliding in a hand-typed screenplay for a popular movie, and sealing it with the glue seal? What would prevent a monolithic corporation to accuse me of doing that if the screenplay *was* original? The postal service makes no claims about the integrity of the envelope, so they really can't testify as to what was in it when they postmarked it.

Sure, someone may have presented that as *part* of their case, but the attorney for the other side would have to be pretty dim if he or she let them get away with it.


Reply #16 Top
My sister, about 30 years ago. She's a graphic artist and teacher, sculptor and painter/drawer....you name it, she's done it...

Was done via Registered mail...[in Oz]...
Reply #17 Top
"prevent a monolithic corporation of accusing me " I change my mind about part of it and forget to change the rest...

If the postage thing *is* true, some one with malicious intent could cost companies a lot of money in legal fees, whether they won or not. I just checked, and I have more than a dozen unsealed manila envelopes postmarked prior to 1995. I used them before major magazines started accepting electronic submissions, and it appears I never licked the glue...

I would really like to see the transcripts from a copyright case that used a postmark for evidence.
Reply #18 Top
If you really want to get technical, I believe forensic science would be able to give a rough estimate on the period since a glue seal was bonded, based on the decay of the glue over time.

Also, when sending something by registered delivery (at least in this country) they stick a large sticker on the package with the date, etc. on. If you requested that they stuck it over the seal of the envelope, I'm sure that would be sufficient. I believe they modify the design of those stickers every year or so too, specifically to prevent fraud.
Reply #19 Top
Aussie Registered mail is signed-for, person to person, and receipted...
Reply #20 Top
I've never been able to find a court transcript or a law to indicate that sort of thing is admissible as evidence.

I'll see what I can dig up with the US postal service. I'm willing to bet that they'll say that they can't verify an envelope hasn't been opened and resealed after delivery, registered or not. IF they can't verify the seal, then they can't say that the work was in it when it was mailed.

On the other hand, if they take responsibility for verifying the integrity of the seal or envelope, then they open themselves up to liability when someone abuses the system. I don't think they would do that. I get letters with torn envelopes pretty often.
Reply #21 Top
So negative...

Do you have any better ideas then bakerstreet?
Reply #22 Top
Actually, the registered mail thing works over here as well. The trick is to make sure the envelope is and remains sealed. Besides, one shouldn't be too gratious with ones originals and keep stuff behind for juridic purposes.
Reply #23 Top
Okay, okay, okay. i promise I don't mean to be negative, but it really is a myth. An easy-to-find one, granted, but so are flying saucers and alligators in the sewers...

According to a local IP lawyer that donated 5 minutes to talk to me, the issue would first be whether your sealed envelope could be admitted as evidence in the first place. To do so you would have to prove:

a) In order to testify to the integrity of the package, you will have to prove that it was constantly under your *control*. Once you hand it to the employee in the post office, it is out of your control, and doesn't return to your control until you sign for it and pick it up. This negates your ability to testify to the integrity of the contents of the package, and makes the package's seal a non-issue.

b) In a copyright case you aren't there to prove possession, or even authorship, you are there to prove *ownership* of the copyright. Depending on the opposing party's evidence, it may not even matter that you possessed the item at that given time. In order to prove someone infringed your copyright, you have to prove they had access to the work, and therefore possession was possible. If possession of the work isn't in question, and possession doesn't prove authorship or ownership, then you aren't gonna bring up the envelope as evidence.

c) A postmark, even registered mail, makes no claim as to reliability of the package's seal. If you have ever received a broken item or ripped envelope in the mail, you know they aren't liable for the integrity of the mail. Registered mail and other such stickers can be scanned, reprinted, and reapplied to other envelopes. Such will not grant any credence to a claim that a particular item was *in* the package, only that a particular package at a particular weight went from point A to point B and was picked up by a particular person. That is all the postal service can attest to, and all that their documents can prove.

He stated that if his client brought such a package to him for a copyright case, he'd tell them to leave it at home.


**


I have emailed the US copyright office about it and haven't heard back, yet. When I do my Ebay stuff I'll ask at the post office.

Sadly, he was very, very dubious about our particular artform. You really don't wanna know what he thought our chances would be if we needed to proceed against someone legally, and I won't post the reasons, since someone reading this could use them against us. Depressing, though.


**

Here are a few other blurbs from around the net so you won't have to rely my heresay.

http://www.riger.com/pdfs/advertising/copyright.pdf

"The so-called “poor man ’s copyright ”—mailing a copy of your work to yourself to obtain a postage date —is not adequate to secure registration,and cannot be used in a court of law to support a case of copyright infringement."

http://screenwritersguild.org/copyright.htm

"Do not mail your script to yourself (the poor man's copyright) and expect to be protected. This is extremely foolish and offers very little, if any, protection in a court of law. "

http://www.music-law.com/copyright.html

"If you had to go to court, you could give the unopened tape to the judge and prove when you created the work. This procedure, however, does not afford any legal protection. I never recommend this route to bands."

http://www.musicindustrylaw.com/copyright.htm

"...sealed and postmarked envelope containing the song as proof of the date of your copyright authorship. From a practical perspective, it is a pretty pointless exercise."

http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/b/tbritton/Bizboook.html#registering

"...if the matter ever did get to court, rest assured that the first thing that will come out of the opposing lawyers mouth will be a challenge for you to prove CONTROL over that envelope – that is, that in no-way could someone have steamed open the envelope, altered its contents, and resealed it. Not even someone at the Post Office!! This challenge has shot down case after case. "


The best description I heard was here:


http://www.eszine.com/index.cfm?DocID=87

"However, after studying copyright law, I cannot find any reason to do this unless you're a) bored or b) eager to support the post office. Here's why:

-The post mark is not prima facie evidence. You can forge a postmark, or you can send an empty envelope in the mail and then fill it later. You're going to need a damn good lawyer to prove this one. But you won't have a damn good lawyer because:

-If you're too cheap to register your copyright, you're too cheap to hire a lawyer. Forget about trying to claim attorneys' fees; your copyright had to be registered before the infringement occurred. But none of this matters since:

-You need to register your copyright before going to trial. So what good did your CD in your envelope do besides collect dust?

Poor man's copyright is not "better than nothing," it's the same as nothing. Worse, it is a waste of time and money. I have yet to find an instance where it was used as evidence, let alone even allowed to come to trial. Case closed"




Reply #24 Top
I haven't even tried to find any evidence to prove otherwise, but I've read about the usefulness of this method, and its positive legal worth, in many highly-respected graphic design print publications over the years. It may well prove to be a futile act, but surely it's better to be seen to do something to protect copyright, however seemingly insignificant, than simply rolling over and admitting defeat in the face of copyright theft.

As I've stated time and time again in these message boards, and forums all over the net, it's a lack of education on the issue of copyright which is the main problem. It's only through positive discussion on potential deterrants that we can hope to fight the ever-increasing problem. I tend to think that threads like this one, and bakerstreet's comments, only serve to add fuel to the fire and encourage those who deliberately break the law to continue their 'screw them, they can't touch us' attitude.
Reply #25 Top
greyhaze: Or you could say that perpetuating false information on how to protect your copyright "only serve(s) to add fuel to the fire and encourage those who deliberately break the law to continue their 'screw them, they can't touch us' attitude."


**

It isn't gonna matter what I come up with. All people have to say is 'you're wrong'. Whether or not they have facts to back it up is meaningless when people will just take your word for it because of who you are. Discussion here is worthless. I'm sick of it.

If greyhaze thinks my perspective on this is promoting theft, fine. I'll be more than happy not to waste any more time.