Mecha as a build option like fighters?

I have conflicting responses to this:

On the one hand, none of the sci-fi universes I happen to be a fan of include Mecha, so I have no particular emotional attachment to them. Because of that my first instinct is to say that they haven't been a part of the GalCiv universe so far and so I'd rather not see them introduced now and they would feel out of place. Mecha have always felt to me a little more fantasy set in space, while GalCiv is more of a hard sci-fi universe.

On the other hand, the idea is pretty cool, they look neat, and if they were tactically distinct from what already exists in the game they could be interesting.

Finally though, I'm not sure that combat is going to be complex enough to justify them. I'm not sure that factors like mobility or even speed will make a difference. If there were full tactical combat I could see the point of them, but if it basically just a comparison of attack numbers, attack speeds, and defenses, I don't think they add anything to the game.

That being said, if it is primarily and aesthetic thing, I'm sure with a little time in the shipyard you will be able to make ships that look like mecha.

Im not convince presumably humanoid mech suits in space for combat do in fact make any sense in reality and I'm not a big fan of giant mechs anyway. Pacific rim made no physical sense. That said small mechsuits for boarding actions could make sense being able to function in space and in grasping and gaining entry to enemy ships.

You could always use the shipbuilder and make the fighters mecha. 

Carriers are planned to be implemented so might be able to get around it some.

If you want mecha and have a PS3- look into importing Gundam extreme VS- hearing a lot of good about that (and it plays on American PS3's)

I love me some BattleTech. It's just a whole lot of fun to HULK SMASH!!!!!  In a 100-ton walking death machine.

That said, Mecha only make sense in a ground combat/invasion scenario.  So until we have GC3 include a Turn-Based Tactical Combat system, I can't see them being anything more than fluff.

I'm actually much more in favor of a Gound/Invasion TBTC than I am the space-based version of it.

Mecha in space as combat systems make absolutely no sense, and it's one of the big things I can't stand about the various Anime series that do this.  It's the equivalent of using rocketpack-equipped infantry against an F-15, fighting at 30,000 ft.   As bad as the "Space is an Ocean" metaphor is for space combat, it's still far superior to involving any land-based simile.

Fair points all.  The game might not really merit mobile suits though, having said that.  I like it as a tech tree option.  

One for ground combat.  I know that we don't play the ground combat part but I am hoping for a more complex tech development.  Starting with conventional warefare and moving on to include to additional battle strategies including a non-conventional mecha strategy.  Mecha has multiple uses, various weapons various roles including support, shock troop, and engineer.  Again not talking about the super mecha like the ones in Pacific Rim, more small units like Gundam, Macross, and Mech Warrior.  

Two, space is possible, yes I know I can just work up the parts, but I would like to see it in the tree.  It might be just some advantages.  I understand that.  Perhaps it could be a part of a Space Marines line.  I like the idea of being able to storm enemy ships, the literal interpretation of that being that you have an increased likelihood of capturing enemy vessels.

Three since mech can fight in space and ground they would technically be able to fight independently launching space and ground raids.  Might add another dimension to the game, more non-conventional warefare.  Food for thought for an expansion.  As I mentioned I would not want this ideal to derail the development.  If it can't be done I am still extremely good with this game as is.  Who ever said that GalCiv 2 did not have them and still turned out ok was absolutely right.

As a long time RTS gamer the idea of Mech combat on the space base or planetary level in not that far fetched. I do like the idea.  I think this could be achieved with a Mech building factory that works the same as the shipyards. It would need some RTS aspects and can still be turn based. How about Planetary Base building with a Mech factory that can be researched and implemented for ground base combat

There is a reason we don't have 100 meter high 1000 ton robots they are total impractical for ground combat to because;

1) for the same reason we don't have 100 meter tall humans because the bones e.g. stress structure couldn't take it as size increases mass and hence forces stressing the support structure increases cubicly but the cross sectional area of the stress structures would only be squared. Result giant mega mechs arms and legs snap and crumple.

2) A 1000 ton mech thrown through the air is a pile of scrap when it lands due to the force of its own momentum.

3)  they make enormous realitivly slow moving targets a very bad thing in combat involving high power kenetic, energy and explosive weapons.

Now you could use super scifi techs like molecular binding fields and super strong light composite materials to give a way of overcoming 1 & 2 possibley but 3 is the real killer why do that rather than building small fast well potected machines with high powered weapons. The giant humanoid battle mech makes no sense.

Tank sized mechs as heavy weapons platforms are more credible,  but would be more likley to have 4 or more legs for speed agility and mobility like big dog the millitary  equipment carring robot prototype.

Ok I'll stop being a kill joy now. but giant humanoid mechs are one of my pet hates in sci-fi they always have me shouting that makes no sense. 

I think your ignorance is showing again^. Paul said in a pod cast recently quoting someone else, that sifi is to push the boundaries of science and reality. Or something similar to that.

I love giant robots. I love the game Armored Core (which you might just like... ) and I would like seeing them in the game.

if one Mech equaled a small or tiny hull ship and was like 1b troops on the ground that would be a nice cool looking super weapon toy that makes people happy and is awesome and a interesting concept and I like it and I LIKE IT!

DARCA.

and transformers, and star hawk, and mass effect all have trans orbital offensive platforms as well.

Sorry DARCA, but econodrum1 has this one right.  Scale of size makes giant robots impractical at best.  Physics is not easily bluffed, and sizing rules are part of that obstinance.  (As another factor, tactically speaking, big things in combat are big targets.)  You can posit sufficient tech to break physics and duplicate the visual effects of sci-fi fantasies, but then again, you could apply the same technologies to create little miniscule force bubbles that packed nuclear size wallops billions of times per second.  It wouldn't look as visually spectacular, but they would kill you dead, dead, dead.  That shows why you shouldn't mistake Hollywood images for valid sci-fi speculation. 

You can still have it in games and have fun with it.  That is always true, The power of imagination to disregard reality is endless.  If we could harness it to move our ships, we would beat out Hyperdrive every time.  Wait, Hyperdrive is already imaginary. 

Hi  DARCA,

I've long ago realised that trying to have a reasoned logical debate with you on issues of science is to quote Blackadder "like a broken pencil.....pointless".

I've said my bit on this and will leave it at that, except to say that the best fictional universes are credible enough to allow suspension of disbelief which does of course depend on how much the viewer or reader knows.

There's always room for the more fantastical and ill considered stuff and  I'm fine with people enjoying that just find it rather unsatisfactory myself. I like my scifi hard, if I want fantasy I read fantasy.

To keep this idea in the scope of reality then all Dev's need to do is limit the scope of a Mech hull to TINY size. Yet, allow player to research weapons and countermeasures options for Mech suits, There is really no need for HUGE mechs for combat. This fits into the reality because as of right now mechanical combat suits are being developed and tested for soldiers.

Sorry DARCA nothing! Your opinions are out numbered so that automatically makes you weird and wrong! (society is so cruel )

Have you heard of air craft carriers before? How about talking about the HUMONGOUS targets ships already in the game would be, but that's what armor is for right? look up hydraulics on mega dump trucks, they actually would weigh more than the two or three story mech that would be in the game. Not that it will matter in space with its relatively small size in line with tiny/small hulls. Or that all this is fake and for fun...

ALso I don't think a mech that's five times taller twenty times sturdier (at least) and a thousand time as deadly as a single soldier is unbelievable or unattractive. Especially in a game when everything can be solved in one tech description. "thanks to our research in the newly discovered Xnium, we now know how to synthesize the nearly indescribable and versatile material on the industrial scale. It will make the mech production a reality but will be possible for few nations due to to the high price of mass producing these awesome looking menaces." simple.

Anywho. If you've ever play AC 4/5 then you'd know one of the best parts of having a mech in any game is taking your custom AC to a battle and sucking on some Java while piss ants try to dent your armor with missiles and pistols till sunset on Sunday. Fun.

DARCA

And your shit don't stink with your imaginary sophistication is what you were saying to me. For you to actually acknowledge that this proposed feature is well received and your bs reasons why mechs are impossible are dumb is like waiting for the end of the universe.

What's even funnier/ironic is how I get a "sorry DARCA" and a insulting quote for something that 6 out of the 8 people that have posted like. Your ignorant dislike for me is understandable but I have to say I am baffled me being the figure head of something I merely agree with to you. And you feel like you have to argue with me and not the community. Lol

sifi and autonomous amorphous transports go hand and hand. They are a extremely efficient, effective and fun when it comes to planetary and solar battles due to its versatility. From evacuation, invasion, fire support, escorting ships, transporting, and modular weapons to easily equip for different Senario's makes flying mechs awesome and a perfect fit for galciv players that aren't quirky.

IMO.

DARCA

Giant Mecha break the Square/Cube rule.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquareCubeLaw

They're never going to be practical.  Ground pressure alone makes them completely infeasible, let alone power requirements. They're completely fictional, and fun within that realm of Science Fantasy.

Ex: the 6m tall, 100ton mecha from BattleTech have a ground footprint of under 4 sq m at the very best. That's 25t/sq m or 35 psi. standing still, with 10x that while running. An M1 Abrams has a ground pressure of 13, whether moving or not. A human running has a ground pressure of about 30 psi.   For  comparison, the momentary ground pressure of a 747 while landing is about 210 psi.  A mecha could walk only only surfaces covered by thick reinforced concrete, and would have a hard time running on any surface.

Back on target here:

Unless there's something to do with implementing a Tactical Ground Combat system, I can't see how adding mecha have any impact on the game.

In fact, we already have powered suit armor/mecha in GC2.  It's the Drengin/Drath tech "Ultimate Shock Troops".  

1. "Ultimate Shock Troops" is a Drengin/Korath tech, not a Drengin/Drath one.

2. No, it isn't. Here is all it says: "Our shock troops will provide the ultimate shock and awe in our enemies."

What you are most likely thinking of is the "Mechanized Warriors" tech from the Thalan. Here is what it states: "Mechanized warriors are armies of robotic troops that can be controlled from afar."

Maybe as a troop upgrade tech? 

Looking at the posts that preceded this one I see 3 posters in favor of the idea (john1979, Rand Johnson, and DARCA1213), 4 against (myself, econundrum1, Trims2u, and erischild), and one neutral (Alstein). This kind of disregard for what is actually going on in the conversation is why some people don't try to engage you in logical argument DARCA, and why they seem patronizing. 

Trims2u was stating some physics just now and seems to not care that much. Your first post seemed to be open for it if done right. Alsteins possible neutrality is still acceptance, since he would still play the game. Perigrine23 this conversation was fine till econundrum1 was patronizing and I don't like that.p

If the mechs are supposed to be light and sifi like then why does cubes law matter? Its tlike saying something went up from 10¢ to 80¢ when you have a dollar, you can still afford it. The mechs I am imaging aren't like the empire state building they are like tiny hulled ships between 4.4 metric tons and X mass.

bty trims2u and econundrum1 mechs aren't exclusively humanoid the most effective would be a multiple legged or tank like one. I was pretty sure that the main idea for this post regardless of suggested details was to have a non-genocide no population way of taking a planet while doubling as a light fighter like craft.

DARCA

Quite the DARCAstic thread we have here.

I'm fine with big robots as ground forces, so long as they are given a handwave and a semi-plausible explanation. For instance, in Mass Effect, Reapers (huge metal space Cthulhus the size of small mountains) can land on planets because they can project an intense mass-reduction field, making them nearly weightless/much lighter when exposed to gravity, where they would otherwise fall apart/mangle the ground.

I'm fine with the above, and if we were to get something similar in Galactic Civilizations, I'd be cool with it also. Just no blatant disrespect of the laws of physics please.

I don't see any advantages of mecha as an option over fighters or why they should be given a bonus to ground combat and fighters seemingly not.  In fact, having fighters given their mobility and flexibility would probably be a more important.  I'm not even sure if they would offer much in terms of mobility over fighters either.  We've seen a number of shows/films/games where fighters in space do things like rotate around their axis without changing their velocity. So in terms of the space mecha, apart from using the ship designer to make craft look like mecha I don't think there is any need to have them separated out.

As for in ground combat...I can't say I know much about what they have planned.  Have they said much?  If it is like in GC2 you could have it as a tech and it would give you a soldiering bonus, but since you won't see anything it would, not an empty gesture, but pretty unremarkable so to make whether it is in the game or not kind of meaningless.

My issues with Mecha are that even in fantasy Sci Fi, they're only for ground combat.  Unless we want to go full-on StarWars where physics means absolutely nothing and we can do completely ridiculous things that are only possible in someone's imagination.  Giant Robot combat in space falls into this category of pure fantasy.

As to mecha for ground combat, until we allow custom unit builds for ground combat (like we do for spaceships), anything more than them being fluff in a tech that gives a generic bonus isn't going to happen. 

I'd be perfectly happy if we had a Tactical Ground Combat system (in fact, I'd rather have one of those than the long-discussed Space Tactical Combat system), because it adds a significant dimension to the game that is currently very much lacking.  But even there, you'd have to be abstracting up - "units" wouldn't be individual things, they'd be conglomerations:  battalions, regiments, and divisions of things.  And I suspect that there would be very little point to building the level of customized Mecha that we do for ships in such a case. More, you'd be selecting for certain generic characteristics (speed, firepower, armor, maneuverability) of the group as a whole, rather than pimping out a specific mecha design.

Anything more and we're back into a full-scale RTS-style game in the middle of a 4X, and I think everyone knows how I feel about that situation.

Well there is some scifi that has space variants like Gundam and Macross.

I think to be fair to the nay sayers, yes humanoid combat suits are likely totally impractical, at least with modern technology.  But to be fair to us, this is scifi.  I mean warp drive/ FTL drives are likely impracticable as well.  I personally prefer a more small scale mech, say the size of a modern tank or plane, but heck this this a scifi game and if someone wants to research a doomsday 100 meter killing machine, is that really any more unrealistic that a weapon that can destroy a whole planet or star?

This is the best part of a galciv game, we all like to play different.  Some are good, some are bad.  Some prefer light quick ships others prefer huge star destroyers.  I all I am suggesting is an additional amount of diversity if possible within game play.

Instead of a deathstar thing, we should just make a giant mech that slices stars open with a giant sword.

I hate iron giants! (but I love the movie )

100 meters is in insane but I think you have it spot on though. Most people have a particular image that pops into there heads when mechs are mentioned and too think of a practical size for a mech is hard.

I hope we can send fighter sized craft to invade aka mechs. Because sending billions of population which are crucial for production to another planet filled with innocent people to kill them ALL and only a have few survivors is a awful way to capture a planet. I REALLY would love a ultra expensive mech invasion tech that eliminates the senseless slaughter and population use at any point in the game. I would prefer this than genocide because it feels less malevolent, and I would feel better.

DARCA.