Paul,
Im saying that once I pay for a canvas, I dont pay for anything else. If it brings in more biz for the Canvas man, The canvas man shouldnt be askin for money from me to display my art.

While WC/SD is not asking for pay from me to upload here.. they are asking that users pay to get to my free files. Yet I see no proffits.

Also they are asking me to pay to view other artists work.

Now, it hasnt gone that far just yet but it seems to be movin thata way.

I know, but DevArt was most prevalent (as far as I could see). It's also why the Talisman section over at Skinbase got exceptional download counts (not sure whether gRAVE put a stop to that).

But er, I think I'm missing the point somewhere. "You" could have just set things up to point to other sites, but instead "you" created this site. And it is more expensive this way. Hurray hurray, good for you, but the point was? So StarDock chose the hard path and therefore can do no more harm? (got to watch out not to turn this into an anti-StarDock thread, that's not what I'm aiming at)

/me deletes a looong story explaining my views of the exact inner workings of this site, the motives behind it and more of those shenanigans, all that is besides the point

I finally figured out what is wrong with your reasoning. 1) this site is a tool and each tool has costs; 2) do not rub these off on those that criticise it; 3)also do not overemphasize the costs off this tool against its benifits, as if it's all gloomy, overpresenting one side of the story and neglecting the other side make my "one-sided view" alarm go off; and here it comes: 4) you cannot compare you this site to how Lighttek, Hoverdesk or any other dev that hosts its skins on another server, does it, because these guys are peanuts compared to "you".

It's a bit like what my parents always told me: "Eat your meal. The starving kids in Africa would be overjoyed if they would have it" --> No, they wouldn't, because they would not be starving anymore then and no I won't because I am not in Africa. "You" are the parents and the other devs are the starving kids in Africa. No comparison.

Crummy and beardman snuck in there. Post was started below froggies'.

But enough fluff for today.

Crumbut, I accidently posted that under my test account. I just changed it to properly show it as me now.

craeonics - "3)also do not overemphasize the costs off this tool against its benifits"

Its the other way around. You over emphasize the benifits that WinCustomize gives to Stardock. From the days of the Stardock Library to today with WinCustomize the Costs of running a skin library for Stardock has risen dramatically. But the sales have remained fairly constant. Yes, I'm sure Stardock gets some sales because of WinCustomize but no where enough to justify the cost that we are currently putting into it. Everyone 'assumes' that WinCustomize generates a ton of sales. But in reality it has not.

So please stop assuming that Stardock's sole purpose of WinCustomize is to promote the sales of its products. That is simply not the case.

But T-Man you can't say that without a skin library whether it be the old stardock library or wincusto that stardock would sell software in the current climate. IE skinz.org (as it was) it gone for all intents and purposes. So please stop claiming that Wincusto has little or no bearing on sales or renewal with new version or ODNT renewals. If I had to search all over the internet to find skins for WB when I first started with WB it would have been fun for a while but the fun would have worn thin. By stardock having a library at the time it made skinz easy to find and thus held my intrest.


I understand that it costs to run it but it also costs to advertize in the real world doesn't it.

It is no problem to me that stardock uses Wincusto as a marketing (advertizement) tool, I understand that it is and enjoy the site. I just wish that the cost of the site would stop being the main focus of everything.

the Skinbrowser/subscription announcement didn't have to have anything said about the cost of the site it could have just stated that for a small fee Wincustomize would offer extra content and the skinbrowser.


/me thinks another beer is in order.....

Maybe Stardock now gets the majority of its sales as a result of WC, and the other sources of custom have gradually failed over time. There's something scary to think about...

With regard to us not answering Brad's comments, how about answering a couple of the original questions that davad70 and myself asked way back up there? What happened to the extra events at the end of the GUI Olympics, and to the 'Gooey Awards'? It seems every time someone asks this question it gets very conveniently overlooked.

/me thinks that this thread has eaten up way too much time that I should have been completing theupdate to the slimT WB skinz....

Well, I've been reading this for a while and have managed to hold off on commenting.

Here's what I don't get (and welcome those to clue me in:)): Davad70 is a pretty hefty contributor to this site - I didn't actually find the exact number but there were quite a few. I read that he's not happy with the fact that, as a regular contributor, he's not getting the skinbrowser, exclusing suites, etc. that a WC subscriber is getting. Now, I'm not a skinner here (a previous topic somewhere has me mentioning my artistic skills stopping at stick people ), but I don't think that any of this was available to him prior to the subscription model (Again, I may be wrong - did contributors here receive the special skins that Alexandrie & Treetog did for the CDs???).

As far as WC charging the subscription, there seems to be some people that do not think it right that they charge to essentially allow unlimited access to others work. That somehow they're reaping the benefits of everyone else's hard work designing and creating all these wonderful skins for WB, DesktopX, etc. This line of thought ties in directly with a later discussion on "deep linking" (linking to other sites as opposed to hosting the file directly). I ask the skinners out here, which would you rather have: 1) WC hosting the file directly and perhaps charging an OPTIONAL small fee for those that want unlimited d/ls (I see that as being the primary benefit of the subscription) or 2) Deep Linking to a site that the skinner themselves has to put up, operate, maintain, PAY FOR, etc.? Sure, I suppose that WC could link to devArt where you've uploaded your skin, but what happens when dA starts doing the same thing? Eventually there would be no where left to link to EXCEPT for the skinners own home page. While this idea COULD work, I don't think it would be successful. How many times would a user attempt to d/l a skin and get a 404 error or something along those lines before saying screw it and giving up completely?

Even though I'm a registered ODNT subscriber and would thusly have access to the unlimited d/ls, I, personally, don't have a problem with shelling out the $20 for the subscription? Why? Because I d/l a fair amount of skins. Sometimes I just d/l them to see what they'll look like on my system because the zoom is such a crappy image it's still hard to tell (especially on some of the ICQ skins!). So, I consider my $20 well spent in that aspect. I already see the money I shell out yearly for ODNT as being MORE than well spent! How can I expect those funds to cover even MORE than they already do? I can't - ergo - I pay for the subscription.

As for the ratings, I've NEVER handed out a negative rating. If there's something wrong with the skin, I'll post a comment (or email the author directly). I don't think I've ever issued a rating less than 7. Now, do I ever look at ratings when considering whether or not I want to d/l it? Nope. NEVER. If it looks good, I grab it. If not, I pass.

So here's my summation: I'm a user. Not a skinner. I greatly appreciate all the hard work the skinners on this site put forth. I also appreciate all the work that T-Man, Alexandrie, and whoever else it is that works on the backend of this site puts forth. I'm not sure if they get paid or not but it doesn't matter to me - they do a kickass job!

Now, all that said - maybe I've missed the entire point of this thread but I just don't understand all the griping about optionally paying $20 to further support WC. Maybe if it was mandatory I could understand but it's not.

So, in closing, to all those skinners & admins out there - KEEP ON DOING THE GREAT JOBS YOU DO!
To all those who just, for whatever reason, can't seem to get past the optional contribution and do not like the idea of users opting to pay to get access to skins that are free either a) don't pay and don't download or don't skin the product and withdraw your skins from the site (I hope that this never happens because ANY loss to the community is just that - a loss, but it seems that for some, it will be the only way to make them happy)

Hehe...looks like I managed to catch the Brad-osis virus...

Thanks RobbieRobb.

People don't come to this site primarily because of word of mouth, most people learned of this site through Stardock (60%+ of referrals are from Stardock). We know to a pretty strong degree how effective this site is at generating new sales versus supporting existing ones and while there is some benefit to Stardock as a marketing tool, it is nowhere near making up for the costs.

As has been pointed out, Stardock could just have a library that links to higlighted skins on the net like Talisman does. It would be nearly as effective as a marketing tool at WinCustomize is. It's that simple.

Skin authors do us a favor by allowing us to display their skin. But skin authors get something in return - hosting. WinCustomize hosts that skin. People take that hosting for granted and they shouldn't. The site could have been designed where instead of uploading the skin, the skin author provides the LINK to where to download it.

The cost of this hosting plus the fact that anyone reading this must surely realize that this site is vastly more than just a skin library is considerable - $150k per year easily.

Therefore, WinCustomize does have to start carrying its share of the weight. All the analogies in the world don't change the fact that WinCustomize cannot continue on the course it has been where it just eats up more and more bandwidth.

The options are to either raise the prices on software or to encourage users who use this site heavily to contribute to its maintainence. The problem I have with raising software prices is that people should be purchasing the software, not subsidizing the downloading of say Litestep themes or wallpapers or whatever.

Either our software has to increase in price to pay for this site or this site has to find ways of paying for itself.

The site doesn't necesarily have to generate $150,000 in subscriptions or other things because there is some marketing benefit to the site. But it does need to generate some amount >$0.

The debate shouldn't whether the site should have paid-subscriptions, because it's not open to debate. If we don't get enough subscribers then we'll have to find a way to lower bandwidth costs through restricting downloads on skins, icons, themes, that we host.

Business 101: A business has to generate more income than expenses. We either increase income or we lower expenses. Expenses are already much lower than they would otherwise be thanks to a massive amount of volunteerism. The big expense with a bullseye on it is reliable bandwidth. So we have to find a way to pay for it - either use less of it or find a way to pay for it.

Regarding the extra goodies: They were being sent out presently. While the rules implied that it was an (get one of these items) it's probably best to just send out goodies. Davad should already have his now.

As someone who has skins available here, I personally don't have a problem with the subscription charges.
If each skin was being indivdually sold, that would be wrong, but the fact is that people are only being charged to expand the amount they can download each month. And since the cash goes back into the site, it doesn't seem too big a deal.

Not long after this site first started, I hated the direction I believed it was taking.I even said so in a thread related to it. I deleted my skins and stayed clear of WC.(I wasn't going to bitch[well, not too much,hehe], I merely stated my opinions and left).
Now?
Now I love the way the site is going, and I think too much shit gets slung at Stardock, Wincustomize and Brad in particular.

I don't really agree with most of the negatives in this thread, this site has become one of the best in the skinning/graphics scene(my opinion), and Stardock are a fine company.The GUI Olympics proved that.
I'm sure Stardock make a fair bit of cash every year, but to give 10 grand + prizes out, is still incredibly generous.

And Brad, please reconsider your decision regarding the summer Glimpics.
As someone stated earlier (T-man I think) , people only pass comment when they're pissed off.
If you took a fair bit of a pelting from the naysayers,then think how many people must have enjoyed the GUI Olympics. (I know I did)

I feel sorry for those people trying to load this page on Dialup.....Geez....It takes long enough for me and I am on Cable through Roadrunner. God forbid there be anyone on a 28.8 or 33.6 Modem out there.

Frogboy>> That wasn't the question I was referring to. It was the question of what happened to the extra five bonus categories that were talked about toward the end of the contest. They were hyped up, although with some secrecy, and then never materialised as the contest just sort of fizzled out. There was also talk of an awards 'ceremony' here at WC called the 'Gooeys', intended to reward outstanding contribution to the site by individuals. That never happened either, despite the talk of the event making it sound like it was all planned out and ready to go.

I didn't even compete but I enjoyed watching.

After Hippy's post, I think I should clarify my position on the whole subscription thing. I have absolutely no problem with the subscription system, apart from possibly making SkinBrowser available through ODNT, but that's another issue. As someone who's currently trying to put together a large-scale site of a vaguely similar nature, I can understand the need to cover bandwidth costs, and the need to seperate the gathering of funds for the site from the selling of Stardock products.

I also enjoyed the GUI Olympics immensely, as I think I stated way back at the start of this thread. Sure there were a lot of initial problems with the rules and such, but I think the way Brad listened to what myself and the rest of the hotheads had to say, and the way he acted quickly to do something about our concerns, was above and beyond what could be expected.

My dissent only comes in relation to promises unfulfilled and important questions left unanswered. I also sometimes feel, perhaps unjustly, that skinners are slightly undervalued here when compared to other community sites. That's just my opinion though, and I know there are many who disagree.

This is the best skin site there is - end of story. Stop bitchin and cut some slack. People get skins for free thanks to all the hard work put in by skinners at their expense in their time. The programs cost next to nothing. And people still aren't happy.
Reading all this lot has given me a ****in' headache so I'm going to bed now (it's 00:18 here).

Night all!

Grayhze: Regarding the Gooey's. That's a whole 'nother topic. Basically we haven't been able to reach a consensus on who should win the different categories.

For example, who should win "Skinner of the year"? Talk about a real killer: Do you award Treetog? Well, Treetog's an admin here. So is Alexandrie. So is DavidK and Paxx and Jafo and other skinners. Do you award Adni? His skins have the most downloads. But how does one determine best skins? So you can see the problems we're having. I think the Gooeys will have to become a Stardock-specific event so that we can at least look at giving awards to people who happen to be admins on this site.

Regarding the GUI Olympics, while I was indeed ticked off when I said I wouldn't do another one, now with a calm view on things I still don't think it a good thing(tm) for me to volunteer for it. I'm too much of a target. And any future one would have to be pretty much run by Stardock with no ambiguity as something that primarily is targeting skin users and then have specific awards for skin sites as a seperate thing. Like I said before, it's really a problem mixing altruism with business because people can't easily see where one part stops and the other starts.

Phew!

BTW, Hippy, thanks for kind words. It really means a lot coming from you.

Not gona even try to read all this. Being here from the start I've watched this site grow and improve. At first it felt like a Stardock library site. Look at it now. Its a skin site run by skin authors. 3 of the 10 most pop skin download authors are admins. hell i think almost all the Admins are well known skinnerz. I think that's one reason why the sites become to popular. Skin authors running the the show who also appreciate the needs of users.

grayhaze...
While it remains the case that the majority of admins/wizops are skinners themselves then skinners will be very much 'valued'. We ain't about to cut off our noses to spite our faces...

Some people seem to overstate Brad's and Stardock's control of Mincustomize.com to the detriment of the other admins/wizops actual influence over the site management and direction.

We really are a skinner-controlled site...it's just that the 'Accountant' [Brad], although a skinner as well, needs to be a realist as well. It ain't all gonna be fun and games....someone has to buy the playground equipment and maintain it...

I still believe that the majority of flak that Wincustomize seems to generate and/or attract is a direct result of a more 'open' management interaction/inclusion with the skinners and general users themselves....

OK...I plead the Fifth....'Mincustomize' indeed...

this thread is too big for me now

A T-Shirt, a couple of CD's and now a subscription..... my only question is when are the new CD's coming out, and are you guys ever going to make coffee mugs and a T-Shirt ( or better yet an Izod) with Alex's Lizard on it. Especialy the Coffee mugs, get lots of use out of those, not to mention that I prommised Crae one when they came out (which untill now I'm sure he forgot about ). Even though the odds of me ever creating a single skin that would ever see the light of day is slim to none I will continue to support this site and Pixtudio with my wallet.

I think that most of this is no more than folks not taking a couple of moments to actualy listen (read) to each other. If you don't want to help keep this site around, fine, don't support it! > I'm sure that there are a large number of us evil USERS that will. Please don't get me wrong, I will allways thank the ARTists who make each and every skin that gets uploaded. Without them my Puters would be very very gray.

I allso think that Brad is taking the honerable path and sending out all of the goodies to the folks who got the Honorable mentions during the winter GUI Olympics, yes wires got crossed but in the end I think that most of the miscommunications have been resolved.

As far as the ratings go, I have my account set to display every skin with a "1" or higher just in case some DWEEB gave a gem of a skin a low score. I comment on those that I like or if I notice a problem. Do I rate every skin that I look at .... Nope.

Well enough of my ravings, have a great evening all, and please try and take a moment to listen to each other.

/me goes back to the basement to go get a Beer or two or three