AIs form allainces with each other too fast in 1.31

If you look at the replay you can look at it from one of the AI's point of view, go to the tab on relationships, and see where exactly all of the positive relationship is coming from.

That is a great idea and here is the data.

Be warned a lot of info.

Note I did not have a replay but had saved games at time points of 1:05, 1:15, 1:26 and 1:38. So I could reload the games and play as the TEC or VAsari to see what was going on.

The results are disturbing and it is pretty clear the devs need to tune their new diplomacy framework for the upper echelons of AI.

Some context first. This game had 3 AIs (all cruel) unlocked teams on a medium map. One vasari AI (pink), one Advent (green), and one TEC (red). My starting planets were hideous except one desert world right next to the TEC AI. I have no chance at a trade chain except via a starbase link and even then it is only 4 lanes. The TEC and I had been fighting since the get go. Pink was to my right but blocked by a pirate world. I did not see pink except for scout ships until the 1:26 time point via a wormhole right in the middle of my empire. I never saw green either until they died around the 90 minutes in.

Now the data:

1:05 timepoint:

Pink has an opinion of 3.60 with red and red has a 3.14 with pink. Pink is hitting green from one side and red is fighting me (and losing his shirt whenever he does) but is getting hit by green from behind. Pink for some reason doesn't like me (1.3) even though I have had no contact. In fact he is already offering red missions to hit me (wtf?).

So the breakdown: no trade yet, no envoys, no missions completed or rejected by either, military action approval is very small, racial biases still present, there is already a 2.0 AI relationship bonus (what is this?) and both have almost fully researched the diplomacy tree including all pacts up to level 7 so they share a 3.0 research bonus.

1:15 timepoint:

Red is focusing more of his task on defending his green flank. Pink is starting to hurt green on the other side. Pink still offers missions to red to blow up my structures (huh?). TEC is 5.4 with pink, pink has a 3.64 opinion of red TEC. Miliatry actions are in the area of 2.0 for TEC liking pink (probably over green getting hit). Btw I have researched envoys and the cultural bonsu ones but I have no place to send envoys to since red hates me and I can't get anywhere near the others.

So the breakdown: no trade yet, no mission bonuses, military approval is like 1.8 and 2.5 for the two mutually, racials still rpesent (this is the notable exception from research), AI relationship bonus is 2.0 and research bonus is 3.0 still.

1:26 timepoint:

Green has 4 worlds but is about to lose one and surrender (like 2 minutes later). Red TEC now has 7 envoys built. Pink like six. They are moving to each other's worlds to become mated for life. They have a trade alliance. Red has an opinion of 6.55 of pink and pink is 4.6. Military actions are 1.7 for pink seeing red and red has a 2.87 military action for pink (about the same as 1:15 timepoint). No ship vision yet. No planet vision yet. No pacts yet.

So the breakdown: Trade is ~0.25. Military action is 2.87 / 1.7. Envoy bonus is 0.69. AI relationship still 2.0 and research bonus is 3.0. Negative racials of -1.45 and -2.20 still in place.

Both are only offering missions to hit me. Yay!

Pink is sending a big fleet through the wormhole to hit my worlds.

Now it gets surreal.

1:38 timepoint:

Green died at 1:29.

Red and pink are both in the 1600-1800 fleet point range.

Suddenly they are bosom buddies with a cease fire. Red has 9 envoys and same for pink.

TEC likes pink at 17.6 and pink likes red TEC at 16.55 (WTF!!! in 12 minutes?)

Military actions are ~ 5.0 for TEC liking pink and pink is 4.4 for liking red's military actions (since they have both been pounding me).

Red hates me by this point since I have killed a ton of his ships.

Red and pink are attacking grav wells jointly.

So the breakdown: Still no missions completed or rejected by either party. AI relationship still 2.0. Research bonus is 3.0. Trade is 0.89. Military us 5.0 and 4.4 respectively. Racials still present and negative. But envoy bonus went from 0.69 to over 7 in 12 minutes. They have mutual planetary and ship vision. No resources or bribes ever given.

Summary:

The AI relationship bonus is overkill at upper AI levels where they max diplomacy in first 30-45 minutes.

Fleet bonuses or penalties were always fractional (<+/- 0.5).

That is a built in +5 relationship bonus at cruel and vicious AIs with no sweat between themselves.

The AI is offering missions against me when I haven't had any contact. In fact pink likes green more than me even though pink is hitting green hard.

I researched my cultural affinities around the 45 minute mark Total waste from what I can tell.

Red was foredoomed to hate me since we are right at each other's throats. But pink doesn't know me. Period. But they already dislike me enough to send missions out.

Missions between themselves were not a factor. No resources or credits sent or received on their sides. Military action was small and steady until green faltered.

Once green falls they move their mutual envoys around and bam it's over.

Their relationship jumps 8-9 points in 12 minutes.

They never even bothered to research away the racial modifier.

The aforementioned dynamics in medium maps are more brutal since you have three AIs and either two will team up after 3rd dies (one border, one from nowhere) or all three team up (two fronts simultaneous + one from nowhere).

Proposal:

At higher AIs the AI relationship of +2 is not a good thing. Remove it please. Sounds like a kluge fix from the past.

The cultural / diplomatic research bonus is unavoidable and will be +3 very early on for all AI between themselves.

The AI preferring AIs it is attacking and vice-versa over a human player it has no contact with by default (even if of same race) is poorly designed.

Maybe joint attacks on grav wells should not occur with cease fires (i.e. require an alliance) but that might be risky.

Then again the mass envoy deployment is a deal breaker probably.

Cruel and vicious is hard enough as is. The current diplomacy version as of 1.31 while ambitious is fatally flawed imo for smaller maps in its current form at cruel and vicious AIs.

Well, they are called "Cruel" and "Vicious" for a reason... even against a great player, those super-income AIs can team up and make it hopeless.

I'm kind of ambivalent about having the devs tweak the AI diplomacy system make it more fair. If teams are unlocked, it creates a challenge as challenging as one wishes, depending on the map setting and number of AIs - which can be an unbeatable challenge if you set the difficulty high enough. If one wants to fight against AIs with large income bonuses but without diplomacy bonuses (which can often be dealt with), simply lock the teams.

It depends on the level of challenge you want. If this situation was made more fair for the human player, that would be one less element of possible challenge. I kind of like the idea of people being able to choose to play against an almost-unbeatable difficulty (via diplomacy) if they want to.

If it's a problem, just lock the teams or reduce their difficulty by a level. No need for the devs to change anything IMO.

Although if the devs had spare time (which they don't), I'd definitely be in favor of them adding an option for something like "Diplomatic Advantage" (normal, hard, impossible) for each AI to address this more cleanly.

Well that is one opinion I guess.

For my part locked teams at cruel and vicious are formulaic and boring.

I don't mind pairings and alliances of AI. That is part of unlocked teams.

But the behavior and data I showed in this thread did not remotely happen pre-1.31.

The rapid phase transition in diplomacy between empires along with an inexorable climb that you cannot compete means frankly diplomacy is no longer possible at the higher AIs.

Case in point I restarted the map researched diplo early (very painful), bribed the pink vasari with metal. And sent envoys out through the pirate world (used scouts to drag the pirates in a wild goose chase to other side of well).

And guess what happened. While I was barely withstanding red's onslaught, green comes into one of my grav wells to assist red by offering up 12 starfish. This was at the 30 minute mark btw. Sure enough the green AI still had a higher relationship with red than with me though we had never met and share no border. Why? Because even with max diplo research (except level 6 racial modifier) I still am behind the 2.0 AI relationship bonus (anyone care explain or defend that kluge fix?). I managed to get a trade alliance out of pink but with no cease fire, my envoys got shot down. The bonus was too little too late. By the time I treid to bribe with metal, yeah I got a ceasefire but it took over 1000 metal which sunk my war effort. And guess what ... pink still liked red more.

At the very least AI relationship bonus has to go. In 1.31 the goal was for the AI to be on the same footing as the human player right? Not true. Bordering AIs will always choose to atatck you over each other since they have a built-in bogus +2 and at higher AI levels they are at +3 research very early. You can match the +3 at the sake of a ton of resources and credits.

I just think the devs should consider tweaking it slightly since it has very unanticipated effects at cruel and vicious in the current paradigm. It probably doesn't take much.

And before people again say well just play locked teams. What about pirates? There is a reason everyone turns it off. It is broken badly. Do you want the same thing for diplomacy (i.e. unlocked teams) on higher difficulty levels. Diplomacy only means pacts in MP anyways. I know most people play the AI on normal and unfair but there has to be some sort of solution until like pirates, diplomacy is simply turned off by default (that would be sad imo).

And again locked teams at cruel is boring and formulaic unless you get really bad map setup. At vicious it depends on how many enemy AI. One AI? Only challenge on a map like Point Blank. Two AI on a medium map fighting you on both fronts , yeah that can be rough. Ironically I think these early AI alliances do not happen in Unfair since the AI doesn't have the same research cheats.

Anyways I am done venting. I gather the diehards only care about MP anyways (I wish I could but my computer is way too slow and whenever I treid to play online in the past I got booted or screamed at for causing lag). Whereas most other people play lower difficulties and could care less about what I have found.

I just hope these problems don't get exacerbated in Rebellion. That would be sad.

No, the point of 1.3 was for the human players to be on the same footing as the AI. In 1.2 the player had a huge advantage over the AI in Diplomacy. It used to be a cake walk to get alliances with every single AI player. At lower AI levels its still quite possible to do this. Honestly I don't know what the answer is to make a Diplomacy system that works at all levels. I know both players will get negative attack points regardless of what gravity well they are in in 1.32, but beyond that I don't know what other changes are in the works. The only thing I could think of is to increase the diplomatic actions penalties, as they didn't stop be from getting cease fires and a few alliances with half the players in an 8 player unfair free for all. But we will see.

Well if the intent was for the player to be on the same footing as the AI then that is even more reason to remove the +2 AI relationship bonus, right?

In the latest version the AI on cruel and vicious starts out at a roughly +5 advantage with other AIs. That seems to make a huge difference in the newest system.

So if their intent was to keep the human player from mass manipulating the AIs via diplomacy ... then mission accomplished.

If their intent was for the human players to be on the same footing as the human player ... then they failed at least at upper echelon AIs.

The data report above spells it all out loud and clear.

The one thing that seems to help btw (I did an experiment) is to reduce the diplomacy rate. I was playing on the faster rate (I play all games at faster usually). If you set diplomacy rate (i.e. diplomacy points only) to slow or normal it seems more reasonable. You are still at a large disadvantage at the start (even that now takes time to accrue) but you can delay the phase transition where the AI coalesces rapidly into alliances and cease fires in a matter of minutes. 

On Normal and Hard the AI ally and go to war as expected.

I don't disagree with that statement.

But the data (see the previous post in this thread) clearly shows this is not the case on the upper AI settings. Not by a longshot.

For fun I played a large map unfair unlocked. Besides being my first time playing TEC in a long time, playing with no SBs, and other than it was pretty boring ... the diplomatic aspect seemed fine. But then again I had the diplomacy rate set at Normal (not Faster like I usually do).

After two hours (yes a long game in a large map), I had one alliance, one ceasefire, and was fighting two groups of two alllies. That seemed fine. By then if I can't defend vs a double attack on a grav well then that is mea culpa. The same cannot be said in under an hour on cruel.

I would be willing to concede that any flaws at the upper AI levels may be exacerbated by the 'Faster' setting but I would hazard to say they are still their nonetheless.

Don't get me wrong the new diplomatic system is much better in terms of rational behavior and features at the regular AI levels.

I have a hard time understanding why everyone seems though to defend the AI relationship bonus boost. The research boost there is nothing to be done about ... that makes sense it just reacts badly with cruel AIs who 'cheat' on research and the 'Faster' setting.

I am not disagreeing with you at all dbkita!

Hehe undestood

My best suggestion right now is to play on slow or normal diplomacy rate on cruel or vicious AI. Inevitably all AI will form cease fires and alliances but if you slow this down you can be in a position to be part of the discussion as opposed to being completely frozen out.

Hey dbkita, check it out!

Sins of a Solar Empire: Trinity/Diplomacy v1.32 Change Log

Hmm, that could be the reason. I thought that setting was only for diplomatic victory (which I never play with), but if it affects all Diplomacy rates that could be why I didn't notice fast forming alliances, as I only play on normal speed.

Seems like a solution so far. Let us know bud.

Will test tonight but the 1.32 changes should certainly help slow down the crystallization to mega AI alliances.

Hail to the devs!

Edit: Yep 1.32 looks good. Diplomacy is challenging and more important the faster you have the rate set when on cruel AI but now in 1.32 it is survivable and actually fun.