How to use the rapture's vengeance ability properly?

Please help me with the best way to use this ability where it will cause the most damage. I know damage done depends on the received damage but i want to make the most of it in small and big fleet battles.

5,707 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

The best way to use vengeance is if the enemy is focusing all their units against a single starbase or capital ship.  There's really not much to be said here; the more units are attacking the target, the more damage will be dealt.

Keep in mind the advertised amount isn't quite as good as it may seem.  The damage reflected by vengeance effectively goes through armor and mitigation twice, so it's greatly reduced.  Maxed out you're advertised a 200% damage returned rate.  This goes through mitigation and armor, then gets reflected, then goes through mitigation and armor again.  You'll probably only end up getting a 30% damage returned rate at best, and this damage is diffused over a large number of units (highly suboptimal).  Personally, I think vengeance is highly overrated and a much weaker ability than most people make it out to be.  It's not terrible, but nothing special.

Now, vertigo is a real game-winner in the right time and place.  Vertigo at level 3 will cut the damage of affected in units in half.  It has a large area of effect and an unlimited target cap, and a fairly decent duration.  Stack it with other forms of damage reduction and you have a scary defensive combo!

Reply #2 Top

Holy Trinity is one of the best ways to use Vengeance, that article needs some work though, but it should give you a good idea of what it entails.

And of course, Darvin would beat me to it. Darvin, could you fact check Holy Trinity, the person who wrote the section I got the info from wasn't sure on some things?

Reply #3 Top

The "Holy Trinity" can be used to refer to both the Progenitor(malice)/Rapture(Vengeance)/Radiance(Animosity/CB) combo as well as the Progenitor(shield restore)/Rapture(vertigo)/Halcyon(EAA/TKP) combo, depending on who you talk to.  The former went out of favour when malice was nerfed eons ago and it hasn't really been worth the expenditure of three capital ship slots since.  It works, but not nearly as well as advertised.  Back when malice was uncapped this could propagate into a lot of damage, but now that it's capped it's actually quite weak given all the setup needed.  For most reasonably-sized fleets, the second combo works far better by simply stacking a bunch of offensive and defensive abilities.

Reply #4 Top

Improved the article based on your post, Darvin, though it probably still needs some more work.

Reply #5 Top

Yeah, ever since Malice got killed, Vengeance has had a lot of its usability cut down...  If it was something more like 150%/300%/450%, then it would actually do well in the current system.  I still say the malice nerf (the way it was done) is my least favorite nerf in the history of the game, but eh...  Nothing I can do about it aside from mod it back for my own personal use.

Anyways, vengeance is still best used with Malice, though that doesn't do that much anymore...

Reply #6 Top

Is it possible for allies hoskikos or overseers to support my Rapture with vertigo and Prog with Shield regen? Esp in multiplayer

 

I want to use a Guardian + Vertigo+ Shield+ (hull repair for caps). I think vertigo and guardian is so incredible when at level 3. so much damage reduction.

 

Thanks so far for the info

 

 

Reply #7 Top

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 6
Is it possible for allies hoskikos or overseers to support my Rapture with vertigo and Prog with Shield regen? Esp in multiplayer
End of RiddleKing's quote

Yes. It also works if you use the Rapture's ultimate ability to take control of an enemy's support cruiser. The only thing is they won't have their researchable abilities obviously, but luckily those two both have healing abilities by default.

Reply #8 Top

Is it possible for allies hoskikos or overseers to support my Rapture with vertigo and Prog with Shield regen? Esp in multiplayer
End of quote

Yes, hoshikos and overseers work very well when supporting allies.  This is particularly good against Vasari, who will be largely ignoring your shield-based defenses with phase missiles.

The trick with Advent is how to phase into this combo.  Three capital ships isn't something you can pull out of your sleeve at the start of the game, and you'll need a significant frigate force to go along with this combo, plus some significant research to get the units you'll need.  In singleplayer you should be able to find a good spot to plant down a starbase then get the units you need, but in multiplayer this is going to be a big challenge.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 8

Is it possible for allies hoskikos or overseers to support my Rapture with vertigo and Prog with Shield regen? Esp in multiplayer

Yes, hoshikos and overseers work very well when supporting allies.  This is particularly good against Vasari, who will be largely ignoring your shield-based defenses with phase missiles.

The trick with Advent is how to phase into this combo.  Three capital ships isn't something you can pull out of your sleeve at the start of the game, and you'll need a significant frigate force to go along with this combo, plus some significant research to get the units you'll need.  In singleplayer you should be able to find a good spot to plant down a starbase then get the units you need, but in multiplayer this is going to be a big challenge.
End of Darvin3's quote

 

If im playing multiplayer and the map is big, plus im on a good spot on the map thats jumps away then i think it is possible. 

What about 1 rapture (vertigo,  Aura), guardians , 2-3 carriers. Hoshikos or overseers will support the cap and envelop other units. Depends on allies. Strong?

Really think advent caps should always level up themselves from the start. Everything depends on caps for their strength. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #10 Top

or cheaper price to purchase levels.

Reply #11 Top

If im playing multiplayer and the map is big, plus im on a good spot on the map thats jumps away then i think it is possible.
End of quote

It won't be big enough.  Good players can reach you within 30 minutes even on the most ludicrously massive maps, and they'll have spent the time building an economic infrastructure so they can shove a massive amount of units down your throat.  While this will still give you more prep time, you won't be able to get a mature force on the field.

What about 1 rapture (vertigo,  Aura), guardians , 2-3 carriers.
End of quote

You'll get swarmed and annihilated by someone who just masses basic combat units here.  Heck, if I spied something like this I'd smack you with a T0 disciple swarm; 60-80 disciples isn't unheard of by the time you could have all those units on the field.  Needless to say, that's game over right there.  You need more firepower.  Remember, for the mere price of researching guardians I can build an additional 7-8 combat frigates.  Combat frigates need to make up the backbone of your fleet, and then you add more advanced units to the mix.

First of all, you should always lead with either Progenitor or Halcyon.  The Progenitor offers you the ability to rapidly colonize and build an economy, which on larger non-rush scenarios is simply too good an offer to pass up.  The Halcyon is by a longshot Advent's strongest combat capital ship, and on smaller rush-scenarios is virtually necessary for survival in the more competitive multiplayer scene.  Rapture should always be second capital ship at earliest.

Second of all, always make sure to get firepower first.  The trick is to phase in the more advanced support units over time.  These units are expensive to research and have little firepower addition to your fleet, so the enemy will be hitting a lot harder with more combat units.  This means you need a sufficiently large force of combat units before you can introduce these support units.  TEC can bring out hoshikos earlier because their repair power is especially effective for smaller fleets, whereas Guardians scale nicely and are more effective for large fleets, so you'll need to hold off on them.  Also, if you don't yet have a Progenitor, it's usually only worthwhile to build guardians for the repulsion ability.  Their shields just deplete too quickly when using shield projection without shield regeneration.

Thirdly, carrier cruisers are a poor choice for an early unit.  Because of their slow move speed, they have a very difficult time retreating, and their antimatter can become depleted quite easily from repeated phase jumping and strike craft replacement.  This makes them very poor unit choices.  If you want carriers early-game, you should build multiple Halcyon carriers.  They have no antimatter costs for building their strike craft, they move considerably faster, and once they reach level 3 (maxing out Adept Drone Anima) the number of strike craft they field is close enough to be competitive with carrier cruisers anyways.

Reply #12 Top

Military

Darvin. I've decided the only thing to do with advent is build disciples and defense vessels along with a 1 or 2 halcyons as the game progresses.

From here on i shift to illums and defense vessels with a few guardians then  crusaders and defense vessels full mass produce guardians. I will need a rapture and prog in this fleet later on for vertigo and guardians so a rapture will be a mid game cap while prog comes after guardians are in good numbers.

I will have a production planet on the front lines with atleast 3/4 frigate factories. Getting ruthlessness for the crusaders is a must have if i can spare slots for hostility temples..

I plan on including preservarence on the domina alone . I know i will have to be stationary to use it to repair my caps but i believe without vertigo and a guardian combo advent are for-going there most powerful defense: "To more than half the damage there fleets receive. Thus i will research with more spare change if the tide of the war is in my favor for the ability for the capital ships to gain experience over time and use resurrection on the prog. Extra spare change will go towards introducing malice and vengeance in any massed crusader fleet.

Total number of caps late game: 6. 

So far i only end up winning the game with 3 caps on small maps.. 2 halcyon s and a Rapture. 

I will never build a cap up until my fleet is in a massive numbers.

 

Economy wise goes like this

 

After repair platforms its 1 culture temple at home world, then after getting the economic benefit get the final harmony temple and start setting up trade ports all asteroid and planets in a cross formation so that they are further away from each other to reap the benefits from the distance bonus.  Next is starbases on front lines planet with culture and trade slots. I build so long as its tactically viable on the map , choke point etc. Fir the prog early on I will only use the 15% discount ability and aim to max the shield regen ability first.

 

Problem

Sounds good on paper but throw in 3-4 vasari carrier caps, overseers and assailants and ill start pissing my self b4 fully testing this strategy. 

 

Either way as advent go its all about vertigo, halcyon and guardians for survival.

I've never had to dig so deep into a race to find its strengths. I'll go play vasari now--advent have given me a headache. . 

 

Reply #13 Top

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 12
Sounds good on paper but throw in 3-4 vasari carrier caps, overseers and assailants and ill start pissing my self b4 fully testing this strategy.
End of RiddleKing's quote

Advent have problems with TEC and Vasari in the early game, ever since the Illuminator got a bug for it fixed, hopefully the latest main beam weapon buff has made things better, I can't exactly find out due to technical difficulties.

Reply #14 Top

Early-game is going to be your biggest problem as Advent, and there's no easy way around it.  Always remember the age-old fallback: hit them with the biggest stone you can find.  Sometimes sheer brute force in the right time and place can overcome your faction's disadvantages and give you the position you need to pull off a win.  The key to that is going to be good intel, good prep-work, and keeping your options open.