Just for fun... lessons to be learnt from AI War

hello,

 

I've recently started playing AI War, and thought it might be fun to brainstorm some ideas. And I would be very interested it Frogboy's thoughts on the game, if he's played it. I doubt any of it would be suitable for vanilla-Elemental, but for a game changing expansion, or huge mod, it has the potential to be amazing.

If you haven't played it, the key feature of AI War is that it is asymmetric. Like, really asymmetric. As in, the AI isn't even playing the same game as you. And by using that as a starting point, the AI can then be given loads of bonuses and "unfair" stuff, and it never feels like it's cheating, because the whole game is designed around that principle. For example, the AI periodically sends waves of ships against some of your planets. And while it gets these ships for free, it doesn't feel cheesey, because the size of the wave is tied to the AI Progress Meter, which is influenced by player actions... the more planets you take, the more "annoyed" the AI gets, so the harder it hits back.

I see two main benefits of this design principle:

1) you don't really get a snowballing effect. In Elemental, and Civ, and most strategy games, both turn-based and real-time, there's usually a point where you know you're probably going to win, as you're far stronger than the other players. This doesn't happen so much in AI War, as even if the AI is down to its last two stars, it can still warp in huge waves of ships to attack you (the game's lore suggests that the bulk of the AI's forces are in an other galaxy completely, which is why it can warp in huge fleets)

2) The AI doesn't need to be programmed to play the same game as the human opponent. So it doesn't need to know about research, economics, etc. This is not to say the the AI is weak. This means that the developers have been able to concentrate on teaching the AI other things, like clever raiding tactics, etc. I'm fairly new to the game, and so keep getting caught out by the AI.

 

So, here's an example on how some of these ideas could be implanted in an Ele-expansion/spinoff game/total conversion mod:

 

How about having a sov who relies nearly 100% on death magic. As such, she has no need for farms, research, gold etc. Why would she? She's happily immortal in her cursed wizards tower/castle/whatever. However, as the (human) player goes about doing his usual thing, people will die. And every time somebody dies, the power of death magic increases, giving the necromancer more power. And there could be a mechanic where the dead slowly start walking and try to make their way to the cursed tower. This will all happen passively as the game plays out, so the Ai will get more powerful just by sitting there.

Then maybe, once the witchqueen (or whatever we're calling him/her) has a large enough army of zombies, skeletons, etc, she can send them off to raid nearby cities.

 

Another scenario could involve a Lord of the Rings like evil superpower, who can summon huge armies from "off the map."

 

I'm sure you lot can come up with better ideas. But interesting huh? Maybe once the game settles down, I might look into working on a mod with some of these ideas. But it seems like a nice way of creating challenging gameplay, an interesting differences in the gameplay mechanics between different races and factions.

 

 

 

 

 

13,437 views 12 replies
Reply #1 Top

Yess! I have mentioned that waves of monsters will be the easy way to make game more challengeble. But i have no idea how to mod this. There is no scenario editor, no script editor, and in xml files AI have very small amount of parameters, that we can change. But, if someone want to make such mod, and know how to do it, i can help )

Reply #2 Top

Yess! I have mentioned that waves of monsters will be the easy way to make game more challengeble.

 

Yep. And it wouldn't be too hard to work the gameplay mechanics into the lore.... suppose one of the Titans cursed the world of Elemental before abandoning it in an attempt to stop future civilisations rising up. The curse could perhaps cause increasingly powerful armies of elemental creatures to civilisations... the more land you restore, the greater the effect.

 

Reply #3 Top

AI WAR suks, stupid childs toy of bang bang cap pistols. It cheats and Brad is well known for making great AI's without cheating. I want to play against an artificial intelligence not a "cheat code".

Reply #4 Top

Quoting rossanderson48, reply 3
It cheats and Brad is well known for making great AI's without cheating.

Elemental have super cheat AI. And it cant build cities, build armies, ect.. What are you talking about?

Reply #5 Top

 

Quoting rossanderson48, reply 3
AI WAR suks, stupid childs toy of bang bang cap pistols. It cheats and Brad is well known for making great AI's without cheating. I want to play against an artificial intelligence not a "cheat code".

Which shows just how much you've missed the point of that game rossanderson - the whole point of AI War is that you have to outsmart and defeat a foe who is so much more powerful than you that they don't even consider you a threat at the start and are pretty much ignoring you. The AI in AI War is designed to "cheat" as you put it - it's the entire point of the game!

 

Every game AI "cheats" at some point, even if it's just to make the game more difficult. Have you never played Civilisation on the Emperor / Deity levels?!? :omg:

 

I think this is a very good idea actuall y, like Riadsala says it's something that should feed into the game lore relatively easily. Where one of my major beefs with this game is the lack of distinction between the Empire and the Kingdoms, it would be great to see say empire magic being used to generate a lethal wave of monsters etc, which the Kingdoms have to unite and defend against.  I would envisage it more like a scenario (something Kael should be more than familiar with!) though than something built into the general game.

 

Thumbs up from me :thumbsup:

Reply #6 Top

Quoting rossanderson48, reply 3
AI WAR suks, stupid childs toy of bang bang cap pistols. It cheats and Brad is well known for making great AI's without cheating. I want to play against an artificial intelligence not a "cheat code".

 

Name two 4x strategy genera PC games made in the twenty first century outside of chess that are capable of an excellent AI without "cheating."

..... I can still hear the crickets chirping ...... 

There aren't any.

It's not a question of how good an AI is in our time, it's a question of "least bad"  ... it's analogous to politicians: a question of which piece of crap to vote for that smells the least of sh*t; how bad can you be "faked-out."

I don't care how much a computer AI cheats, as long as it can give me a good, challenging game.

I just want to play a fun, challenging 4x game: fun = challenging.

That's all.

Reply #7 Top

Oh yeah how quaint use just the 21st century let's go back to the 20th century where the most ai's were invented and used. Master of Orion II and even I have great AI's on NORMAL difficulty no cheating. Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri the same no cheating at normal difficulties. It's not 4x but proves my point about ai's today vs yesterday. AI WARS is nothing but a cheating game might as well just play Civilization on Emperor or any other game on maximum difficulty. That's not an AI it's just CHEAT CODES.

As far as challenging if youwant cheating for challenging that's fine I have no problem with that, but, to implement it TOTALLY like AI WARS is ridiculous and stupid. AI WARS is a romper room type of game and has no AI. just cheat codes.

Also chess is not a 4x game lol don't know why you used it as an analogy.

So therefore and without malice I don't want to see ANY of the AI wars code in this game. Leave that game for the children out there.

Reply #8 Top

AI WARS is a romper room type of game and has no AI. just cheat codes.

 

Have you actually ever played AI War? It's pretty much the most strategic RTS out there, and it includes some of the best tactical AI routines I've seen in quite some time. You CAN'T play it as a "romper room type of game," if you did, the AI will cripple you.

 

Why I'm bothering to try and discuss something with a troll, I don't know.

 

Reply #9 Top



 1) you don't really get a snowballing effect. In Elemental, and Civ, and most strategy games, both turn-based and real-time, there's usually a point where you know you're probably going to win, as you're far stronger than the other players. This doesn't happen so much in AI War, as even if the AI is down to its last two stars, it can still warp in huge waves of ships to attack you (the game's lore suggests that the bulk of the AI's forces are in an other galaxy completely, which is why it can warp in huge fleets)

Well, for Elemental I'm not sure that I'd like to see some "out of thin air" armies when the AI player is nearly beaten. However, some last ditch effort megaspell or something like that (example for certain factions - sacrifice half the population to create such a huge army quickly; which wouldn't be very broken because it could be done only once) would be nice.

2) The AI doesn't need to be programmed to play the same game as the human opponent. So it doesn't need to know about research, economics, etc. This is not to say the the AI is weak. This means that the developers have been able to concentrate on teaching the AI other things, like clever raiding tactics, etc. I'm fairly new to the game, and so keep getting caught out by the AI.

If each faction would play the game differently (because of slightly different tech trees, spells, build priorities and unit design) I think the desired effect would be produced.



 

How about having a sov who relies nearly 100% on death magic. As such, she has no need for farms, research, gold etc. Why would she? She's happily immortal in her cursed wizards tower/castle/whatever. However, as the (human) player goes about doing his usual thing, people will die. And every time somebody dies, the power of death magic increases, giving the necromancer more power. And there could be a mechanic where the dead slowly start walking and try to make their way to the cursed tower. This will all happen passively as the game plays out, so the Ai will get more powerful just by sitting there.

Then maybe, once the witchqueen (or whatever we're calling him/her) has a large enough army of zombies, skeletons, etc, she can send them off to raid nearby cities.

 
Another scenario could involve a Lord of the Rings like evil superpower, who can summon huge armies from "off the map."

 

 


Interesting, and I think modding community would take care of most of that :-). Nevertheless, it would be nice to see it in the non-moded game as well, at least some differences in factions aside from starting Sovereign and alignment (kingdom/empire).

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #10 Top

Quoting riadsala, reply 8

AI WARS is a romper room type of game and has no AI. just cheat codes.
 

Have you actually ever played AI War? It's pretty much the most strategic RTS out there, and it includes some of the best tactical AI routines I've seen in quite some time. You CAN'T play it as a "romper room type of game," if you did, the AI will cripple you.

 

Why I'm bothering to try and discuss something with a troll, I don't know.

 

It sounds like he was just really bad at it. :P

AI War really requires a different mindset to get good at. The goal in most games is to conquer as much as you can, something which is particularly true in 4X games because of the snowball effect. Doing that in AI War is suicidal. The goal in AI War is to beat the AI while capturing as *little* as possible.

I like the game quite a lot, particularly because it's not 'cheating'. The entire premise of the game is that you're fighting an AI. It's not trying to imitate a human player. It's not trying to play by your rules. It plays like an AI that has you outmanned and outgunned... which is actually the quote that defines the game. Saying it's 'cheating' when it's the entire point of the game just shows a lack of understanding of what the game is trying to do.

 

That said, I'm not sure how well that model applies to a game like Elemental in sandbox mode. It would make a potentially awesome scenario style of map though, to have to build up and fight against a super evil empire that's already established and is a lot bigger, stronger, and more advanced then you.

Reply #11 Top

Yes keep on fooling yourselves that it's not cheating, keep on showing your low IQ's lmao.

Implementing anything from AI WARS would be a big mistake....fact and period. ;)

But, then again why am I even discussing this with the likes of this bunch? Lmao I know Brad will not introduce anything as stupid as the AI WARS mechanics to THIS game.

Reply #12 Top

Well, for Elemental I'm not sure that I'd like to see some "out of thin air" armies when the AI player is nearly beaten.

 

me neither, unless it's done sensibly, rather than to just make the game longer. And tied into the lore to make consistent sense. I guess in a way Ele, has something like this already, as the nastier monsters only appear later in the game (personally, I don't like the way this is implemented at present). Perhaps this element could be expanded, with the world fighting back against expanding civilisations... like the Ents in LORT or something. The more you expand into the wilderness, the more the wilderness stricks back.

 

Like I said originally, I'm not arguing for these mechanics to be added to the main Ele game. Just thought it would be an interesting brainstorming discussion. and maybe generate some ideas for some mods, scenarios or whatnot. It opens up loads of game design mechanics.