Observation about Diplomacy and Diplomatic victory...

from Sins Forums

I love the new diplomatic features of the new expansion, but I hate the Diplomatic Victory option.

First off, the concept of a Diplomatic "Victory" doesn't make sence to me.  Just because two empires are currently at peace doesn't mean war can't/won't come later on.  Things change, resources become scarce, and westward expansion occurs.

Diplomatic Victory, when turned on, creates a rat race of who can build the most envoys the fastest and build up the most love first.  There is no war or conflict, aside from pirates and militia (I've tried playing 4 games with DV on, all against Hard or Unfair AIs).  Basically the AI spams Envoys, and to keep from having a "Diplomatic Loss" your forced to do the same.

I do like that when DV is turned on, the AI send envoys, and offer pacts.  In short they reciprocate your own generoisity to them (if any).  But the rat race of love still overshadows this.

I noticed when DV is turned off, the game is much different. You can send envoys, offer pacts, and "buy" peace for your empire. But the AI (I played 5 games DV off, against Hard/Unfair AI), doesn't reciprocate.  The game is not much different than Entrenchment, just more ways to spend your own resources to purchase peace from a war-oriented AI.

What I would like to see is the AI not completely abandon diplomatic efforts on their part when Diplomatic Victory is turned off.  Just because diplomacy isn't a path to victory doens't mean it isn't a valuable tool along the way.

Just my two cents.

11,357 views 10 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

I agree. I also would like to know what exactly a "Diplomatic Victory/Loss" is even supposed to be. It doesn't make any sense.

I think that "Diplomatic Victory" should be when you manage to get all players to form peace treaties with each other. So you get to play Galactic UN for a while. Of course, to do this you'd need a "Send envoy to..." mission option.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

I having played with diplomatic Victory seems to be desinged purely for Human vs. Human (No AI) games

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

when dip victory is on i noticed that the ais dont give a F about making pacts. which is dumb. the ais max out at like 10 friendship points no matter how much resources you bribe them with no matter how many missions you succeed at where they claim to give you 3 friendship points. just because dip victory is possible shouldnt negate the possibility of pacts with games involving ais

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I had all out pacts with an AI on my team. Diplomatic victory off with teams locked though.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Emplear, reply 2
I having played with diplomatic Victory seems to be desinged purely for Human vs. Human (No AI) games
End of Emplear's quote

I tend to agree with this.  The AI doesn't appear to recongnize that the player is 20 points away from a Diplomatic Victory win, and will simply lose rather than declare war and try to stop you.  While this behavior would make sense in a campaign, a skirmish is a multiplayer simulator; the AIs are supposed to be playing to win.  This means turning on an ally if needed to prevent certain loss.

I tend to turn it off, as it feels too much like cheating.  As others said, it also doesn't make sense.  It's like the idiotic 'culture victory' in Civ4.  We win because we're really cultured?  What?

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

If the relationship points victory had further conditions, like having a majority of the planets owned under your direct control, then it might be a good method of finishing a won game so it didn't drag out, and everyone would want it.

As it is the points system needs work, the couple of times I tried you can starbase on about 4-5 planets, go three stages up the tech tree and wait for your win....

What the game might use is the Dimensional Cascades..  An sf superweapon that completely defeats the opponent, technology on a different scale altogether.  Not much use fighting if your fleet- and planets- are several dimensions away from your target, attacking someone else entirely- who also have Dimensional warfare, and are about to charge up theirs to move you on too... Of course there are different weapons for other factions..

It would be like the Wonder victory from AoEII, whether you just need to complete the weapon, or, the better style and as it was originally implemented, with a cooldown before the game ends to allow the opponent a chance to destroy it.   

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting lbgsloan, reply 5

Quoting Emplear, reply 2I having played with diplomatic Victory seems to be desinged purely for Human vs. Human (No AI) games
I tend to agree with this.  The AI doesn't appear to recongnize that the player is 20 points away from a Diplomatic Victory win, and will simply lose rather than declare war and try to stop you.  While this behavior would make sense in a campaign, a skirmish is a multiplayer simulator; the AIs are supposed to be playing to win.  This means turning on an ally if needed to prevent certain loss.

I tend to turn it off, as it feels too much like cheating.  As others said, it also doesn't make sense.  It's like the idiotic 'culture victory' in Civ4.  We win because we're really cultured?  What?
End of lbgsloan's quote

    If the devs cant get the ai to do something as easy as deploying superweapons, there is no way the ai is going to be able to mimic(?) smart diplomatic moves. This is a game that 98% of the time are single player games. Why the devs continue to push multiplayer features is beyond me. And still no real booklet explaining, anything really, for instance what does locked teams do in diplomacy? Ironclad time to hire at least someone to explain this stuff, not hearing much from the brothers lately, most interaction has been from Stardock.

    Diplomacy was a mistake as far as Im concerned, this is a space battle game, thats all, I dont WANT a diplomatic win. ( i know i can turn it off, it still a stupid idea). If the traffic in these forums are any indication, diplomacy( yawn) was a swing and a miss. Not a good way to keep the excitement up, different tech,new races,different types of wells,planets, that is the way to go. Not spend a ton of money to be your friend and then I'll stab you in the back later.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Well, the relationship system and AI missions were a decent and needed addition to the game as nobody played unlocked team games pre-Diplomacy.  The pacts also made civilian tech worthwhile again, seeing as Entrenchment skewed things towards military.  The rest I will agree was not though out very well.  Envoys are just something you build and forget about, the pirates just got raw stat buffs rather than make them more interesting, and pretty much everyone agrees the diplomatic victory option is bad as currently implemented.

As Desconner said, it would have made far more sense to have a end of tree super superweapon that wins the game.  Once built, everyone would have X minutes to stop it, otherwise you win.  This makes far more sense, and would be far more fun as everyone turns on you in a last ditch effort to stop you, than a 'diplomatic victory'.  Of course, it could be toggled on and off pre-game for those that didn't want it.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

I strongly disagree with wbino. Diplomacy is a great expansion that needs work.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

The relationship points victory is too easy.  A start might be to lower all faction animosities a further point and then increase the effect of improved xeno relations by a point- I'd include same-same relations in this, you can't assume that two TEC factions have the same culture.  Pact requirements might need dropping a point as well, to compensate.

Incremental adjustments will help to get the points balance right, but I'd still like some further requirement, if you've only got a couple of planets it seems odd that your enemies would surrender just because a couple of other small factions like you very much indeed..?

Scientists still toil on the great Dimensional Cascades project..