Gameplay Suggestions: Round Two

from Elemental Forums

I posted this in the beta thread, and it was immediately buried in bug reports. Rather than futilly bumping for a while then surcumbing to the flood, I'm just going to re-post here.

  • I really do like the tech system here... of course, it might be nice to have a more tree-looking UI where techs are connected to the techs that unlock them, but that's fairly minor on my list of concerns.
  • The locked-down borders are driving me up the WALL!! If I had complete free-reighn here I would create a system in the general vein of this:
    • You can't see a faction's borders at first. You can tell that the land has been revived by life or death magic and plan accordingly, but until you run into a unit you don't know who's doing the reviving.
    • When you do run into a unit, the faction initiates diplomatic contact. They immediately have three options: allow all units of your faction in their borders, allow only non-attacking units, or ban you all together.
    • If your units are banned from their borders, they will be set on an unchangeable auto-pilot path directly out of the territory. They can still stop to fight creatures, but not for anything else.
    • If you violate closed borders, nothing happens UNLESS you get caught. At that point, you get kicked out(see above) and get a VEEEEERY hefty diplo penalty with that faction. Like, halfway from neutral to war hefty. The more units, the worse the penalty.
    • You can of course close borders with any faction you know of or discover, and the AI should react to your border position accordingly.
    • I'm writing this after a looong day of school and beta-testing while watching TV and eating ice cream, so the specifics are probably a little unrefined. I might come back to this tomorrow.
  • Essence growth is too slow for my liking. It would help if levelling was linear as opposed to exponential, with the stat growth diminishing as opposed to the ease of levelling. "course, the state of the game now could very easily make it easier to level up w/o changing the math....
elemental
10,861 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I am with you that the default "if you cross the border that is a declaration of war" is too harsh. And maybe it is just there because there is no diplomacy for now so they wanted to show that something happens. Down the road I would like to at least start out neutral with guys who are on the same side as you (Empire vs Kingdom) and that as neutral you could walk thru each others lands. Or maybe the first time you cross it gives you the option to sign a right of passage treaty with them

I also like the idea that even if you are forbidden to enter their land that it only triggers "something bad" if you get caught by one of their units. That could be a little trickier to code for but shouldn't be bad.

I do not like the idea of if you are kicked out that your units are sent on an unchangeable path out of their territory. I would much prefer that the AI give them X number of turns to get out on their own (but the units are still under full player control) For instance what if you get kicked out in the middle of their territory and you need to get the unit to the far side of their territory? If it is autopath out of the country it is probably going to send it back to your border. Much better if you have the option of trying to get across in the number of turns.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I do not like the idea of if you are kicked out that your units are sent on an unchangeable path out of their territory. I would much prefer that the AI give them X number of turns to get out on their own (but the units are still under full player control) For instance what if you get kicked out in the middle of their territory and you need to get the unit to the far side of their territory? If it is autopath out of the country it is probably going to send it back to your border. Much better if you have the option of trying to get across in the number of turns.
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Yeah, that was the weakest part of my proposal IMHO. I like your idea better.

Maybe, alotted turns = number of turns in a streight line plus, say, 10%? The best part of the countdown idea is that you can choose to disobey it, but if they see you loitering around there is a load of trouble in store for you.

WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

+1 diplomatic talks would be very interesting and it could lead to new developments and tactics, like a stealth skill, invisibilty or camoflauge spell, watch towers and range of site for cities; and it would be much more tactical than I am going to cross your borders so I am at war with you.

Beta said that we would also contribute ideas and this is one of the better ones I have seen thus far. I hope it gets more support and recgonition. Please everyone post with you oppinion on these so we can shoot down the lame ideas and boost up the good ones so Stardock notices!

+1Scoutdog +1 

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I personally think that the sovereign, being just some guy wandering around, shouldn't necessarily be the impetus for a declaration of war.

 

Scout: Hey, sire, there's some old man wandering around a few miles from our town.

King: Oh really? Declare war on the closest nation!

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm sure once diplomacy is implemented, open borders will be too.

"unchangeable" is dangerous.   You should never force movement without some sort of alternative.   For example, the shortest route out of the territory is 4 turns, so then the player should be able to pick to which location those 4 turns are going to be spent.   If it is unchangeable, players are going to become frustrated by it.   heck Denryu's already frustrated by it, and it isn't even implemented.   Many older games auto-shove units to the nearest border, which I feel is a poor way of doing it as they tend to get stuck on sides of the map they cannot get home from.    

I often say "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" (or at least I think it, I don't usually say it unless its in the voice of Clockworth from beauty and the beast) but in this case it is broken.  We should try to think of a better way of managing it, rather than default to the way its been done since the 90s

I wouldn't say a VEEEERY  hefty diplo penalty, unless your violating with like 1000 armored troops.  Everybody spies on everybody else.  Its the way of things.   Perhaps just a *sorta hefty diplomacy penalty.

 

essence grows by gaining levels, and perhaps also by doing quests and collecting magic items.   When there are actually ways to gain levels (other than hunting down spiders that have no predictable pattern and are just as fast as you) then it will speed up naturally.  It may need adjusting, but at this point its too soon to make a judgement call on the rate at which it is gained.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

"unchangeable" is dangerous. You should never force movement without some sort of alternative. For example, the shortest route out of the territory is 4 turns, so then the player should be able to pick to which location those 4 turns are going to be spent. If it is unchangeable, players are going to become frustrated by it. heck Denryu's already frustrated by it, and it isn't even implemented. Many older games auto-shove units to the nearest border, which I feel is a poor way of doing it as they tend to get stuck on sides of the map they cannot get home from.

I often say "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" (or at least I think it, I don't usually say it unless its in the voice of Clockworth from beauty and the beast) but in this case it is broken. We should try to think of a better way of managing it, rather than default to the way its been done since the 90s
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Yeah, as I said in my second post there's a much better way of doing. But the point is what we have now is not at all satisfactory, and it's very easy to fix.
I wouldn't say a VEEEERY hefty diplo penalty, unless your violating with like 1000 armored troops. Everybody spies on everybody else. Its the way of things. Perhaps just a *sorta hefty diplomacy penalty.
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Yes, unit-based degree is already in my proposal, just not phrased very well. Also, some factions should be more protective of their borders than others, and your diplo state should affect the aggrevation factor: i.e. a couple of British soldiers caught on US soil w/o a passport would cause a lot less of a stir than an equal number of equally-armed North Korean soldeirs.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I feel that going to war for stepping into enemy territory is a bit harsh myself. I like the theory behind it, however. I feel that when your units stray into enemy territory, you should have a certain number of turns (probably between one and three) to move them back out again, or else war will be declared. And without any treaties in place, tensions should rise between you and the neighboring power each turn you have units stationed inside their territory.

This gives early boundries meaning and import, but doesn't totally restrict freedom of movement or punish you for an innocent mistake.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

While a simple lag on the borders would remove the "mistake" problem, it doesn't do much for  freedom of movement and totally closed borders just seem unreaonable.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

The hard-locked, 'smart' borders seem wrong to me also, but I'm hoping that landi is right about how play will change when the diplomacy features are in the build. I'm especially fond of the idea that if you can't keep your border out of the FoW, it isn't a serious border; you should need units and or spells to cover it if you want to try enforcing it.

Re essence, it seems way to early to take a firm position there. I had one game going for a while where I got on a very lucky level-gaining ride and founded several sites without dropping below 15 essence. That felt a little like I was beginning to get a city-spam advantage thing going, but mostly it reminded me that we have neither imbued champions nor essence-using spells to consider yet.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

You should also be able to build a Spy or some kind of Stealth unit that can march into enemy lands undetected. Not a big unit of course, more like one guy who can sneak around. A invisibility spell would be nice for sneaking a unit through enemy land as well. Hopefully it will work that way and Not just give the unit a defense modifier in combat, though it should do that too.

Just stepping into another sovereign's land shouldn't trigger a war though, no. You should have the option through diplomacy  to get a right of passage at the very least.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 10
You should also be able to build a Spy or some kind of Stealth unit that can march into enemy lands undetected.
End of Raven's quote

 

There should be different stealth levels as well.   Naturally a demonic shadow assassin should be able to hide more easily than a regular ninja.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 11



Quoting Raven X,
reply 10
You should also be able to build a Spy or some kind of Stealth unit that can march into enemy lands undetected.


 

There should be different stealth levels as well.   Naturally a demonic shadow assassin should be able to hide more easily than a regular ninja.
End of NTJedi's quote

Indeed. Perhaps most of the abilities should have 5 ranks. Example: Stealth I - Stealth V