Toying with a new "Trek Mod" idea

from Sins Forums

Sacrifice of Angels 2 is going quite well despite the "entrenchment setbacks". TBH i am losing interest in SoA 2.

However SoA 2 was not the mod i originally had in mind to do for sins when it first came out. I originally wanted to do a trek mod in the classic TOS era, but not as you all knew it.

How many of you here heard of "Starfleet Battles", and its offshoot "Federation, and Empire"? For those that dont know a little web searching will get you up to speed. SFB was, and still is an ubergeek board game. You know? in a time before computers :p We used a paper map. Cardboard playing pieces. SSD's, pen, paper, and our imaginations. It was a very popular game during its time which focused on mainly tactical starship combat (individual ships). An offshoot of SFB called Federation, and Empire came shortly after focusing on the Grand Strategic side (entire fleets, planet, and economy management).

A computer game called Starfleet Command was based on the SFB universe. The 1st three installments (SFC SFC 2 and Orion Pirates) remained faithful to the SFB rules, and stats as best as could possibly be done at the time. SFC 3 has NOTHING to do with the SFB ruleset, and is a completely different game imo. These games focused on tactical ship combat as well. Though you could control up to 5 ships per side.

To give you an idea of what i have in mind SFB/F&E is based on the star trek universe, Specifically the Franz Joseph Tech Manual. Which was the only "official" reference for Trek in 1979. While star trek itself diverged when the movies, and especially TNG came out. SFB remained in the TOS era disregarding canon, and adhereing strictly to its own fiction. While some of that fiction can be outright silly. It has the fact that it is all consistant which is more than we can say for "canon" trek.

What i want to do is make a mod based on the "Starfleet Universe". More specifically Federation, and Empire. The reason being is because all of the ships, stats, and rules are set in stone. There is no "wait i saw this ship do this one episode, and that the next". There is no "Thats not canon", because none of SFB is canon! It is its own universe based on trek. However everything in SFB is absolute. There is a rule to cover everything. The hardest part will be the translation of the SFB rules to Sins. That will be a daunting challenge, because Sins weapons, and stats are "general" not specific. There is no loss of DPS, or chance to hit with range. There is EW, but it is very basic, and its an ability in sins. You cant simulate wild weasels in sins (at least not that i am aware of). This is why i want to lean more toward Federation, and Empire because like in sins the ship to ship combat is basic. However in F&E the ship combat is a little "too" basic.

Obviously not every ship class, and thier ridiculous amounts of variants will be in the mod. It will be very basic with the core ship classes of each faction. Research will be required for the higher tier ships like battleships, and "X-Ships", but the core capitals (carrier, cruiser, dreadnaught) should be research free.  Also SFB carriers can be in the mod, but the fighter/PF spam of SFB will not be. I need to figure out a way to get the Andromidans in if i chose to do this.

The art of SFB leaves much to be desired. While the standard federation, and Klingon ships look like they should in the classic TOS era. The Romulans and some of the minor factions look absolutely atrocious. Basically most of SFB artwork consists of nothing but tin cans, saucers, cigars with warp nacelles bolted on. We will take a lot of artistic licence like taldren did with SFC if we chose to do this mod.

The last major obstical of course is Amarillo Design (the makers of SFB) itself. They were cool with modding SFC since it was based off of SFB. But Sins is another story, and another licence. I may need to get permission from ADB to give them "free advertising" by making this mod. If i dont get it this will end the whole idea before it even begins.

I basically wanted to toss this out and see what people thought about it. Like i said i am just toying with the idea.

modding
19,880 views 24 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Sounds good, but you can't really do what made the original system so great unless you can get multiple shield sections into the game.  It seems challenging, to say the least.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

major stress, it does sound interesting, and at least you have the majority of models available already.

harpo

 

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Actually no i dont have all the models. If i decide to do this all new models will be built. There wont be any 3rd party work in the mod. Especially since i plan on redesigning 2/3rds of the old SFB ship lineup for artistic purposes.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

major stress, it sounds like you have your work cut out for yourself, but it still sounds like a good mod.

harpo

 

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Major Stress , I know the fun isnt in playing the mod but making the mod , I know :).

But for us , there really isnt any fun because we dont make,  we just play and tho ive gleened over your pics and woooed at the youtubes , I just think there needs to be a bit  more practicality for your mod so us end users can play it properly and use it properly. 

If I was you , what you should do is simply make a "star trek" race that is balanced against the Vasari , TEC , Advent races and is designed to work with the current game.  This way people could download the mod and use it within the parameters of the sins universe. It becomes practical for us to download and play in mp . I wouldnt mind downloading and using this mod in multiplayer just so that a quarter of the players will use a balanced startrek race. It be fun.

A Kol vs a Galaxy class starship might sound wierd and unreal but trust me...its the way to go. Why is there so many StarDestroyer vs Enterprise and Borg vs Death Star youtubes? .because people are curious about how one saga would fight another saga. 

 

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I have always hated the "What if" scenarios. Like Star Trek vs Star Wars. I would never try to mix a genre up like that.

Fans of SFB know all too well that it isnt for everyone. I wouldnt be making the mod for "everyone" if i do it. I would be making it for me first and foremost. If anyone else wanted to jump on the bandwagon then great. I also wouldnt expect any help at all if i do this, because quite frankly not everyone especially the younger generation here would understand the phonebook sized rulesets, errata, and addendums. They would look at it and say "huh?!". Plus the sheer amount of work involved to interprete, and adapt the rules to sins. Which i might add some of the rules may be impossible to add "correctly" so we would have to improvise. Like i said i would be basing the ship combat more on Federation and Empire which has a simplified combat system. However i would give the ships themselves the stats of SFB ships. If the fed heavy cruiser has 6 phaser 1's. guess what... the mod ship will have 6 phaser 1's The will each do between 3-6 points in damage (gotta recheck that rule) and take x amount of time to recharge. Shield arcs obviously are irrelevent in sins. so thats where improvisation comes in. Firing arcs are problematic. weapons like hellbores, esg's, and PPD's will be too.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

You can leave that nonsense to the mod modders anyway, if people want them combined, it's not that hard to do.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

sounds interesting , never played the board game but intersting . Now i am gonna have to see if i can find the board game or more info on it .

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

You dont need to play the board game to experience SFB. Just go a few rounds in Starfleet Command 1, 2, or Orion Pirates. NOT SFC3. SFC's 1, and 2/OP pretty much adapted to, and stuck to the SFB rules quite well. It is SFC3 that totally diverged from the SFB rulesets to do a TNG era game. It is a failure like most of the recent trek games. We all know how "dumbed down" SFC 3 turned out to be. ADB still sells SFB. Just look it up its not hard to find. The newest version of the board game is called "Federation Commander". It is still SFB. However they still sell the old school SFB stuff as well. Be prepared to spend some money to aquire all of the SFB rulesets.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

I think as long as whatever work you put in now can be reutilised for NanoFX to a reasonable extent then you can't really go wrong.

SoaSE does seem to lend itself well to board game scenarios much better than film/TV as such to pick a board game with a strong foundation of rules and stats must a helpful starting position. What I would do though is try out a hyperthetical SoaSE rule translation on the board game first to help visualise the end result ahead of what you rightly point out as being 'the hardest part' i.e. getting the rules into SoaSE which you obviously cannot do to 100%.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Couldn't you just finish the current one ?

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Although I never had the opportunity to play SFB, I was quite the SFC1 /2 fanatic back in the day.  Hydrans, especially in SFC2/OP were by far my favorite race to play.  Nothing like combining the Hellbore weapon with proper use of their strike craft to decimate a foe. How many and which races you want to include will of course be a major factor in turn around time of producing the mod, as while I'd love to run around with the hydran ships - making all the nessisary models and proper balancing for all the little factions would take an atrocious amount of time.

Not having looked into the Sins mechanics I'm not sure if it's an option, however, one way to simulate reduced damage at increased ranges would be to have a sliding 'chance to miss target.'  That way if you open fire at 50 klicks you're basically just putting the weapons on cooldown.  Course if 'miss chance' isn't an option.. yeah, dunno.

I imagine that one of the hardest things to transfer over is going to be the feel of effective micromanagement; since, at least in the pc games, that was the whole point of being able to overcome your opponent - managing your ship(s) better then they were, knowing which strengths your ships had against a particular opponent while at the same time defending yourself from the weaknesses they could be capitalizing upon.

I'm not a coder or graphics artist, but if you decide to do this project I'd love to help out otherwise if it'd be of help - balance testing, rule interpretation vs. sins implementation, or whatever.

G'luck and hope to see the next version SoA2 soon!

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting FrznMD, reply 11
Couldn't you just finish the current one ?
End of FrznMD's quote

I just fired the entire SoA 2 mod team for thier failure to see things my way. Why should i finish a mod that i dont even like?

If i do this I would include all of the core SFB factions the Feds, Klinks, Rommies, Gorn, KZINTI (not mirak!) Lyran, Hydran, ISC, Tholians, and Andromidan if possible, and only IF i can duplicate the "power absorbers". Of course pirates would be Orion.

If i decide to do this i do not need, nor do i want any help this time. I payed the price for getting help with SoA 2. Its not happening again.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

I will speak from a player point of view as I don't mod and I'm just expressing my personal opinion.

Honestly, this will probably 'hit my trashbox' to be a tad rude, and that's wierd.

I can't imagine Sins E (cause starbases are a must in there) without a good Trek mod on the TNG/DS9/VOY era (we even have Babylon, freespace...oh my I'm nostalgic now...), with just the original models and things seen in movies and series, not TOS or ENT as those would require a standalone pretty much to avoid being absolutely anachronistic (and also I don't like them perticularly inside a videogame, loved them on dvd)

Now that you said ships in SoA 2 are moving like missiles, that a 100+ ships battle last few seconds/minutes/whatever, that the mod is completely unbalanced...I wonder who is going to play it then. I doubt many Trekkers will like playing their favourite 'saga' on such a thing just because it feels Trek, and modders without players doesn't get much far either..it can't really be fixed/solved somehow?

There must be a pious soul somewhere willing to code respecting the will of the project leader without too much questions, for a 'greater good'...I'd do that if I just had the know-how. Ahh..cruel fate.

Lo.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

I have SFC 2 and 3 (3 sucks pretty bad), and I like how the gameplay and universe is set up. I'm fully behind the idea should you decide to carry forth your plan.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Major, reply 13

I just fired the entire SoA 2 mod team for thier failure to see things my way.

If i decide to do this i do not need, nor do i want any help this time. I payed the price for getting help with SoA 2. Its not happening again.

End of Major's quote

Then go away. Stop clogging up the forums.

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Salemonz, remove head from ass, untwist panties, and shut up.

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Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Major Stress,

I loved SFB, and played for almost 20 years (off and on). F&E and the campaigns our group created gave it scale with our own histories. Heck, we even had campaign-specific SFB newsletters. And then there was the Get The B-10 free-for-alls. Great fun!

Good luck!

Hydro

Kzinti motto: if you don't attack and over run you can't devour any one.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

 Well good Luck chasing your White Whale Captain Ahab.  Those of us who were excited about the mod you were making for yourself and just happend to be sharing with the rest of us are moving on.  Thanks for the work you did graciously share with the community and the time spent, it was fun!  Good luck on your next mod it sounds great.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

You hit a new low for karma abuse with that one, GW is going to have to work over time to equal such flagrant misuse.

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

I love SFC series except SFC 3 (POS).

It would be cool to see SFB in SoaSE. Anyway, I check out "Federation and Empire" and like its principles.   

The Federation & Empire game system is based on four principles:

  • Economics: You have to conquer territory to gain money, and spend money to conquer territory.
  • Battle Force Organization: No matter how many ships you send into a hex, only one fleet can fight in each of the multiple combat rounds, and that fleet is limited by its flagship.
  • Combat Support: Support your battle forces with missile strikes, electronic warfare, and Marines.
  • Attrition: Cheap war-construction ships, fighters, gunboats, and defenses, all wear down the enemy.

It would be very challenging to put those principles into SoaSE.

If you think you can do it, then go ahead. I could be your cheerleader for making it happen. LOL :grin:  

 

 

 

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Major, reply 13



Quoting FrznMD,
reply 11
Couldn't you just finish the current one ?


I just fired the entire SoA 2 mod team for thier failure to see things my way. Why should i finish a mod that i dont even like?

If i do this I would include all of the core SFB factions the Feds, Klinks, Rommies, Gorn, KZINTI (not mirak!) Lyran, Hydran, ISC, Tholians, and Andromidan if possible, and only IF i can duplicate the "power absorbers". Of course pirates would be Orion.

If i decide to do this i do not need, nor do i want any help this time. I payed the price for getting help with SoA 2. Its not happening again.
End of Major's quote

Oh i would love to see the tholian web in sins i hope you pull it off :thumbsup: . Do you plan SFC style ships or SFB tos era?  I thought adb version aliens were a bit blocky for the tos designs.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

Major Stress, I have seen your work in both Sacrifice of Angels 1&2, and even in the Star Trek mod for Galactic Civilizations.  If you do this I am all for it!

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

I'm the Vulcan Phsycho, and I aprove this message.