Shot in the Foot

This is one of the key reasons I haven't packed up and moved to my wife's country.  I'm not a big fan of doctors but in the case that you speak of, dang skippy I'd be at the hospital.  

That is a weird way to argue a case against health reform. Egypt in 1981 as an example for a socialized healthcare system against reform in the US?! Comeon. Why don't you use Germany as an example? We have a "socialized" healthcare system as well and I assure you that anybody who was shot at in 1981 in WestGermany would not have been left alone for 2 days. Emotional arguments to incite fear are seldom rational.

This does not mean that criticizing issues in a proposed reform should not be done, but it should be more to the point and specific and not about political ideology. I don't think generalizing a huge political issue like the healthcare reform with one example of a personal tragedy in a third world country works very well to make a point.

Re-read the last two sentences. This is not designed to be an "emotional appeal". It is a story with a moral. While many are trying to sell us on the idea that the US system of health care is broken, unfair, unavailable or elitist, I am merely pointing out that health care in the US is a quantum leap beyond most of the rest of the world and that before a bunch of politicians (drooling with the anticipation of tuning things up to their agenda) are allowed to "fix" it, we should step back and realize all that is right with the system and what might be lost if it goes socialized. The comparison with 1981 Egypt is germain only to the story. But in point of fact, if you were to go there today and get shot up, the care you receive would not be measurably improved over what Chris got then. Socialized anything lifts no one. Everyone drops to the lowest common denominator. You are German? You reunified in 1993, right? How did that work out for ya? At last blush, the folks from the Ost are still not caught up with their western brethern. Why? I do not want to see one of the world's premiere institutions dragged down into the Democrat mold and destroyed. You shouldn't either.

The reason we have such a problem with our current health care system is lawyers and DC. 

And insurance...yep!

BFD, I really don't see the problem being with insurance.  I support the notion of contributing to a pool that is there if I or someone else in the pool have a severe misfortune that is very expensive.  I like having the option of being in a pool that I choose and not one that someone else (AKA gov't) choosing for me. 

The gov't has meddled and meddled in insurance making it loose it's original form and how it helped people.  I would love to see a study in how much is spent in paying for the audits of regulations that are put on insurance companies.  Integrity has been lost on all sides.  Doctors who are now playing with lobbists (aka pharmies) for kick backs, Insurances who pay here but not here game, lawyers who run amok just looking for blood, DC who continues to undermine the integrity of the whole process.  This reminds me essentially of PC and affirmative action.  Each have gone past their usefulness and purpose and therefore make up a purpose and usefulness that is purely an delusion. 

*sigh*

BFD how close were you to that tornado that was on the south side of ur area?

TORNADO??!!#$ YIKES!!  Not close.  We hear about them and sometimes we get some good winds...we came home from "Angels and Demons" last week and found tree branches and debris around the yard and on the roof but nothing worthy of the title "tornado".  The weather guessers called it a micro-burst.

As to insurance.  In its original form, I guess it was a good thing, especially for what is now called "catastrophic" illness or injury.  But because services are paid by a third party with very deep pockets, the costs have skyrocketed.  Gone are the days when you could pay the sawbones with a chicken and a slab of bacon.  It is a spiralling mess.  Doctors complain that they can't make any money, patiients complain they can't afford the services without insurance...they only party not complaining is the insurance companies.  I heard about a system where the patients pay directly to the docs for keeping them healthy and fit.  If they get sick, they don't pay until they are well.  When we lived in Phoenix we belonged to a neighborhood clinic.  We paid a monthly payment and then we had access to office visits, exams, repair of injuries, etc...included.  A trip to the emergency room or after hours visits were extra and of course, you had to have extra coverage for catastrophy or chronic illness.  No insurance involved and it was very reasonable.  But they couldn't do that today with the spiralling cost of MALPRACTICE INSURANCE and increased cost of labs and such.  In all, it is a mess...law suits for a hangnail, $100 aspirin tablets and all that have put the whole system in jeopardy.  BUT...letting the government turn it into another AMTRAK just doesn't pass the common sense test.

I am experiencing a problem.  I am not able to post comments on my own threads.  An error has occurred...but if I go through the forum, it posts...weirdness.

The iron curtain fell in 1989, well it all began with communal elections in the GDR in March 1989 where the socialst union party (SED) "won" with something like 98%. People were enraged because many made their vote invalid or did not vote for the SED and there was no way that result could be true. It was a well known fact that the elections were all rigged anyway but this time the populace started to demonstrate against their regime (sound famlilar - Iran) and gathered regularly every Monday to demonstrate and also organized weekly meetings in protestant churches which offered a guise as "non-political". Half a year later the wall in Berlin fell on November 9th. It will be the 20th anniversary this year, I am sure you'll hear about it in the media. It was the beginning of the end of the cold war. ( I am sure there are quite a few people who'd prefer the cold war over fighting terrorists organizations and miss the good ole times). I am too young to really remember what it was like to live in a devided country. Oficially, Germany reunified on October 3rd, 1990. There had to be alot of negotiating being done before the dotted line could be signed, like what to do with east german army, boundaries etc. Did you know that the 3rd reich was never oficially dissolved after WW2? On paper at least huge portions of what is Poland today are still German. Issues like that had to be adressed. I find that part recent history fascinating.

How did it work out? That's a loaded question., because, in a socialst regime the government controlled everything but it also gave people a sense of security. They were used to have no free choice and when the free market economy was introduced it was a shock to many. It left a wake of destruction because many businesses had to shut down because they were not profitable, high unemployment etc. made democratic freedom and civil rights look less and less appealing. 40 years of socialst indoctrination left its mark. But by now a new generation that was born after 1990 is at the start and things start looking better. Sadly, in the east, the successorr of the SED, a ultra left party, is sort of successful, along with the ultra right neonazi party. The two fundamentalist political parties were able to convince those who are unemployed, uneducated and unhappy that the "old way" aka socialism or well nazism was better and they had a huge success in one communal election and were able to enter the state parliament. They won because regular normal people were disillusioned with politics and didn't vote and the ultra left and right were able to mobilze their clientel to vote. It all has fallen apart fairly quickly though. All in all, the east is shaping up nicely, but it is a long and hard journy. Many thought that democracy alone would make things better and had a cruel awakening in the real world.

I wanted to add that stories with a moral at the end just don't work for me in the context with politics, it looks too much like idedology. And that can be a bad bad word in Germany. Especially if the stories are very emotional and tell of personal experiences. It is too easy to sway people on grounds of emotions that blank out all other rationale. I think that is my main objection with your approach. I have seen that emotions seem to be the main driving motor in political processes in the US, and it looks weird from the outside.

Did you know that officially Germany has a system dubbed socialdemocratic republic? Social and democrat - 2 out of 3 that you don't like lol. But Germany is very far away from being a socialist country, the US made sure of that after WW2. That was one big reason what the Marshall plan was for after all, to make sure Germany did not fall under the spell of the USSR and joined the Warshaw pact. It worked well, and it turned Germany into a democracy over the decades. I can tell you that even though the federal and state governments have more clout in Germany, we won't turn into a socialist regime. We also have a more heterogeneous political spectrum with 4-5 political parties that are important on a federal level, which makes one party domination impossible because the big parties always have to form coalitions to have a majority in parliament.

*Sigh* If only that could happen here.

heh. Makes for interesting election campaigns anyway. Ours come up in September and the parties are just now nominating their candidates etc. Will be a fun filled summer of empty promises and slick politicians practicin their gift of gab.

That's all too familiar.

Government leaders should just be chosen like Jury duty here in the states.  Enough with career politicians.

On a different note, I found this article interesting and thought Id share

Banned east german comedy premiers 40 years late

Posting my creds, Ut, I was there when the wall came down, and off and on for 25 years before that, too.  I saw first hand what unification did to your economy and social systems.  I admire the willingness of the German people to bring the eastern folk back into the fold, but as Kohl warned ya'll, it took more than ten years to balance things out (and still working on it).  The word "socialized" in application to medical systems is a misnomer, I should say "government ran" med systems, which you do have. And a pretty good one at that.  But still not a free and open system and like so many other things in Germany, over-regulated and controlled.  Which is all apples and oranges as far as my article is concerned.  Respecting your OPINION on stories with a moral, I still have to say that this article is about what we could loose if we are not careful.  Now, go write your own article about the downfall of emotional responses.

You were there? Can you tell more about that time? This year is the 20th anniversary after all, and that was worldhistory in the making. That would be so great. I was 12 when all that went down, too young to really understand why it was such a big deal, just that it was. I wish I would have known more of what I know now back then. I spoke with people about it in the meantime, but never heard it from the side of a US soldier stationed here during that time. My brother in law was a private in the GDR's army in 1989, and I found it fascinating to hear his account as well.

German's like being regulated and controlled and follwing rules, but you are right, there is too much of it and the administration is trying to cut it back big time with reforms of their own, but somehow it is difficult to actually get it done. Instead they create more agencies that regulate other agencies and it is very confusing and useless. That part, I am conservative. Too much bureaucracy is only counterproductive.

Funny thing is that the social system in Germany was actually created by the conservatives (Bismarck) to disempower the socialist party in the 1880's. And now it seems to be the other way around, at least in ideology.

Thanks and from Deutschland

I might actually write an article on the pitfalls of emtions in politics -  I heard the people screaming YES after Hitler asked them if they wanted total war, and ever since I tend to be suspicious of tactics that use emotions and fears as the main motivating force behind a decision.

There are quite a few people  that are actually for rebuilding the wall - or question wether the price was really worth it all. My answer to that is yes, it is worth it and no price is too high. Reunification under a democratic government had always been the goal, since the founding of the FRG in 1949. It was a really weird constellationg, 2 different systems and 2 different ideologies, both claiming to the one that should be valid for all of Germany. Kohl's promise of 10 years might have been hasty, but even if he was off 20 or 30 years, it was the right thing to do. People just weren't prepared for how much hard work it would really be because Kohl glossed things over generously so that everybody thought it would be a walk in the park.

Nowadays something dubbed Ostalgie is making the rounds, people saying that the GDR wasn't really such a bad place to live in, that the political socialist system wasn't all that bad either etc. That is pissing of alot of people too, who suffered in the GDR and were thrown in jail as political prisoners for having a different oppinion or wanting to leave.

Then there is the whole issue of spying on each other and what to do with those westgermans who worked for the Stasi in WestGermany as informants - thousands of people that nobody really knows who they are. That will be something that historians will research more and more in the coming years. The matter of east germans who worked for the Stasi as inofficial nformants and reported about their neighbours is difficult as it is. I mean can you really throw someone in jail for treason after +20 years when the country that someone worked for doesn't exist anymore? What would happen if the FBI  found out  a US citicen that spied for the GDR/USSR? Would that person still be viewed as a traitor and tried for treason? Somehow I believe that americans would be more enraged about betrayal like that. Here people tend to be more for letting the past stay in the past.

Sorry if I went overbord in this thread, it is just something that I find fascinating

Utemia, you are willing to point out fear tactics of others BUT you fail to see the fear tactics that you are using concerning the environment.

This of course is concerning another thread. I agree with AD that's its DC and lawyers who screwed up our health care system.  I would also add the sue happy neonates that just wanted to make quick and easy money or as Dire Straits puts it 'Money for nothing'.

The country to my understanding that has the best socialized medicine is France.  Both U.K and Canada are refining their systems with the U.K having to put another shot of money in their socialized health system just in the past few years.

I don't understand how so many leptons can think that if its not working/be cheaper in a smaller country how can it work/be cheaper in a larger one.

Germany has about about 82 million people while the U.S. has about 303 million people. That's about 3.7 times more people.  Social Health WAS NOT meant to be effective for the masses.

If the U.S. (or the insurance industry) was remotely intelligent they would try to push preventive care for its much cheaper to catch something in the early stages than it is in the later stages.

You refer to the thread from Draginol right? I didn't aim to sound like that there, but maybe I didn't deliver as well as I thought I had. Selfperception is hardly ever right after all, Thanx I'll work on being more careful in the future.

In answer to your question about what it was like...for us it was not much of a change.  Suddenly there were Traubies clogging up the A-bahn but for the most part, life for GIs wasn't much different.  Of course, we were preoccupied with a little thing called DESERT SHIELD/STORM which had a lot of us running in circles trying to prepare an Army trained for the hills and forests of Central Europe for battle in the deserts of the middle east.  But the news was full of stories about unemployment rates and unemployable Osties who were not marketable in a capitalist system.  They had skills that were decades outdated, they had no work ethic and as you pointed out, a lot of folks began to see the reunification as a mistake.  Almost immediately the skinheads showed up in force making it hard on Gastarbeiters and Osties alike.  A new and vocal nationalism showed up, too, causing some of Germany's neighbors to be a little uncomfortable.  I started my Army career in Bad Kissingen where our job was to guard the East/West German border.  For the next twentyfive years I returned to Germany several times to return to that focus.  Keep the borders secure.  We looked across the wire at the Vopos and Russians and East German Army knowing that we weren't much more than a speed bump if those folks decided to come across.  So when 100,000 East Germans were lining up at the Austrian border and other places were getting restive, we were more than a little nervous about it.  The night the wall was torn down we sat in our quarters in Ludwigsburg and couldn't believe our eyes.  It was great on one hand, scary on the other.  But like I said, no big whoop for the GIs, but we saw all around us how the inflation, unemployment, lowering of social standards and more than a little lawlessness affected our neighbors.

Oh, about the informants and the forgive and forget attitudes...don't believe it.  During the late seventies and early eighties I was in Stuttgart-Vaihingen and had more than a little interface with German counter-terrorism folks.  You have an organization that no one even knew about for the first five or six years it existed.  When they made international news in 1977 rescuing a Lufthansa airliner from RAF terrorists, everyone was shocked that the Germans, who looked like the Keystone Kops in Munich in 1972 could turn out a group that efficient and that ruthless.  Since then their activities are still pretty much kept under wraps but you can bet that treasonous folks that get identified will become familiar with GSG-9 ricky-tick.

I spent almost fourteen of my 26 years of active duty in Germany and I have a great love for the country and a lot of its people.  The struggle to make reunification work is going to pay off in the long run and it will be one of the highest points in German history. 

Where abouts do you live?

I live not too far away from where you were stationed, in Freiburg. It's at the southern edge of the black forest, about 60km north of Basel, 2h-3hrs from Stuttgart on the Autobahn.. I have to say, I realllly like US interstates in comparison. Everybody is going with the same slow speed (an average of 70mph is slow compared to here), no stress - the only crazy thing is that people will pass you on the right and that is just madness, but since everybody is cruising more or less at the same speed it is manageable. Autobahn is nervewracking! If I cam avoid driving I rather use the train or have someone else drive.

Those informants or spies in the West are undiscorered as of yet, and they weren't killing people directly or comitting obvious crimes, "Just" sold or provided information to the (now nonexistent) enemy, as it were. All the data from the Stasi - if it wasn't destroyed by Stasi employees or even stolen by the CIA - has to be analyzed and it is tedious work. And it is not even sure that they are discovered at all.  They would be put on trial, but public outrage wouldn't be so grand.

I have a buddy from Lübeck  who told me that in case of a nuclear attack, Nato would have flattened Lübeck in a sort of preemptive strike to deny the Russians conquering it - my tactical knowledge is nonexistent, but I found that pretty chilling. All of Germany would have been a speedbump if the Abomb had been used. I am so glad all of this is over, even though it was probably easier to predict an enemy that was similiar to yourself and had clear rules like the Russian army and the NVA did than predicting terrorist attacks. In hindsight I would actually prefer the coldwar over islamic fundamentalism.

It is Trabbi, short for Trabant, and we call them Ossies (due to the saxonian dialect), but Osties has a nice ring to it.

I sometimes wonder how GI's like it in Germany but as of now I haven't really been able to grill one about their personal experiences, like if you live on post or in barracks, how much of german lifestyle do you actually experience? Do US underage drinking laws apply .. I love our beer, Glühwein, Feuerzangenbowle und Weinfeste, so I bet loads of GI's below the age of 21 are irresistably tempted by that. Are they allowed to drink or not? It must have been a blast in Kaiserslautern during the summer of 2006 and the worldcup, at least for those that were not deploying to Iraq.

It was great to read a few of your stories about your time here, and Im happy you liked it. I like Germany too (it is cooler than Iowa - lived there for a year - anyday of the week, that's for sure!)

Happy 4th of July!

Low yield "tactical" nukes were the last resort...remember we were about 15 divisions (Allies all combined) facing over 100 divisions.  But the Fulda Gap and the plains of Northern Germany were the most likely avenues of approach and there were plans to plug those holes with tactical nukes.  Of course that would have signaled the end of everything because no matter what the "experts" say, there is no such thing as a "limited nuclear exchange".  If the Russians thought they were losing, they would send their entire arsenal everywhere.

Most of the guys I knew enjoyed their German experience.  I encouraged my soldiers to get out among the local people and participate in fests and other events.  I lived in an apartment in Lampertheim, near Mannheim and then the rest of the time we lived in government quarters.  Living in quarters is a little isolating at times, it is like a small American town in the middle of a foreign country.  Some families stay isolated and go home telling everyone that Germany sucks.  But a lot of families get out into the local neighborhoods and travel and sight-see and enjoy the fabulous restaurants and all.  We enjoyed Saturday morning forays into the International Market in Stuttgart for fresh produce and fruit and whatever else was there at the time.  We regularly went "castle-hunting" and other touristy stuff.  It was cool to have a community that was homelike and familiar and right outside the gate you could be on a European vacation.  The Black Forest is one or our favorite places to drive around in and explore, my favorite part is the open air museum in Gutach and the restaurant in Triberg that is right at the entrance to the falls.  They have the very best mautaschen in the world.  We went through your city just one time that I remember but were impressed.  It is beautiful. 

GIs are people, too.  Some of them will get out of the barracks and see the sights and have a good time.  Others will just find a bar or a gasthaus and drink a lot and sometimes fight each other or locals and tell war stories about it the rest of their lives.  Some will hang out in the on-base clubs and snackbars and rarely leave the post and be unhappy and forever tell their stories about how the army sucks.  Just like there are some Germans who like us, some who don't. 

Now I have to go out to the backyard and fire up the altar, we are ready to celebrate this holiday in style.

I got something interesting for you.. the little city where I grew up, Meersburg, has a really old castle, the oldest parts are from the 7th century. Over time it was enlarged, and Bishops of Konstanz (Meersburg is at the lake of Constance) took up residence there after the reformation. Now there was a dispute over who would get elected as archbiship. the candidate of the Pope or the candidate of the King and well, they had a standoff in Meersburg. One candidate holed himself up there while the other laid siege to it. It went on for quite a while because there were secret passages from the castle etc.. and now I come to the thing I wanted to tell.. maybe it is a legend, Im not sure, but the legend goes that the folks in the castle used gunpowder to create a huge bang, the first time gunpowder was used in a battle, and it was so loud that it scared the other army off. Hmm, maybe I should rewrite that and build up more suspense, but yep, military history took place there.(on the other side of the lake is Switzerland and the alps in the background).

Thanks for the story.  Seems like every region has some interesting tidbits.  I love to hear these old stories.  One of my favorites is about Frederick the Great who intertained Napoleon who was on his way to Russia and was recruiting more troops.  He wanted Fredrick to cough up some help.  I don't remember if he got his troops or not, but upon leaving Fred he commented to his aide-de-camp that he wouldn't have believed human flesh could contain so much fat. Heheheee.  Well, we seem to have blown this thread out of the water so I guess I will scribble a line or two about the Black Forest.  See ya later.

I had to laugh at this.  You are right Utemia, but it still sounds funny to this slowpoke American.

No, the laws of the land (where you are at) does.  On post you are restricted to US laws, but off post, you are subject to the local laws.  But the funny thing is, until recently, AMERICA did not have drinking laws.  Each state did.  I think that changed around 1980 or so, but before then there was military regulations, but no american laws governing alchohol.