12.5 dps Weapons Ignore Shield Mitigation. Fix?

As Hound mentioned, in the Illum vs. Assailant thread, stronger weapons can be rendered similar in dps to weaker ones by shield mitigation. Suppose a strong weapon can raise shield mitigation to 50% quickly. Suppose a weaker weapon has half the dps of the strong weapon. In that case, both weapons do similar dps in effect.

The unfortunate case of the Illum vs. Assailant is likely because the Assailant's vanilla dps is 13, and that would raise the Illum's mitigation. The Illum's is 8.2 dps, assuming left/right banks not firing. It seems all firing arcs are 120 degrees.

Hound thinks this needs correction. I agree.

Mitigation growth should not be based on damage, but on the number of times a ship is being hit by a particular "weapon class type" (beam, laser, autocannon, etc). Yes, this will mean more calculations and CPU load, but I believe not by much more. Calculations will then not be a simple single formula to do with "damage received per second"; it will involve every single "weapon class type" firing at a ship.

That said, would shield mitigation then have to be split up into a few categories, one for each "weapon class type"? I think not. Let's simplify it. A ship being hit will have to decide which weapon class type to defeat. It's shield mitigation would only work for 1 weapon class type at any one time. (Please display which type the mitigation is currently targetting.)

That would truly defeat spams. And it would realistically defeat a race that focuses upgrades on only a single weapon class type. Also, cap ships firing a variety of weapon class types will do much more damage now.

"shieldAbsorbGrowthPerDamage" might be changed to "shieldAbsorbGrowthPerHit".

Now, to implement the AI that decides which weapon class type to target, I suggest simplicity again. Each ship "learns" (gains) more shield mitigation ability (potential, not actual or applied yet) from hits from each weapon class type it received.

For each ship, we'll need a "mitigation potential" counter for each weapon class type. Each time a ship gets hit by a particular weapon class type, the relevant counter is raised. Each counter will also decay over time.

When deciding which weapon class type to defeat, each ship looks at its "mitigation potential" for all weapon class types. It picks the weapon class type it knows how to defeat the best. Simple as that.

(But don't let AI flip back and forth between almost similar mitigation potentials! That would cause a "thrashing", and the shields may never mitigate any hits at all. There should be a threshold, say "choose best mitigation type if it is X points more than current type".)

It short, the manual could say: "Each ship's computer learns from hits it received. The more hits a ship gets from a particular weapon class type, the more the ship's computer can tune the shields to mitigate damage from that weapon class type. A ship can only choose 1 weapon class type to mitigate at any 1 time; it will choose the one it can best defeat."

Be prepared to hear Ironclad say the game will then support less ships at any 1 time! But not by much less, I believe. Maybe more memory is needed.

What do you guys think?

5,341 views 9 replies
Reply #1 Top

Mitigation isn't a problem. What you saw in Assailant vs. Illum was the hypothetical never going to happen in the real game 1 v 1 situation. The fact is in real battles with 20+ ships on both sides, you're not going to have each of your ships target a different ship on the other side just to take advantage of the lesser mitigation. A wounded ship does as much damage as a non-wounded ship.

A DEAD ship is what you need. Now, the game automatically adjusts for this. You will tend to see groups of ten working together, so really, a fleet of say 60 Assailants will really be working together by automatic programming. You'll see 6 different targets go down at the same time because that's how the game is programmed. I don't see a problem with the current configuration.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Raging, reply 1
Mitigation isn't a problem.
End of Raging's quote

For the purposes of gameplay, I would agree. Currently, I just be mindful not to overkill. I pack LRMs into groups of 4, because 4 will just about raise mitigation to max (60%) in 1 volley. Also, the auto-behavior of fighting fleets are not a problem either. I've seen LRMs disengage from a target with half health, likely because it calculated that a previous volley would already kill that target.

Shield mitigation as it is now will only defeat focus-firing (to some extent). Not as realistic as some may like. Certainly a little counter-intuitive.

Reply #3 Top

Good in theory, but I think this would have had to have been introduced in the concept stage of the game so that all races weapon types could have been spread out more. And phase missiles would kind of kill this as some players might want to ignore phase missile mitigation once their opponents have researched max bypass research.

Reply #4 Top

Well, for the game I am developing to go along with my book, that is how mitigation behaves.  In fact, one enemy is only killed by hitting them with particles that randomly degrade into other particles, thus neutralizing the effect of mitigation.

 

The problem here in lies in the fact that by having three capital ships with separate damage types, you can almost completely negate mitigation as they fire in series, thus confusing the shield and destroying the concept.

I like the theory behind it, but it won't happen...  (And you would still need to have a damage rather than hit counter, but it would only be for a single type).  Let pretend this is real, so I'll take it one step further than you did that solves that problem...


Kol Battleship

Max Beam Mitigation: 40%

Max Laser Mitigation: 50%

Max Autocannon Mitigation: 55%

Max Plasma Mitigation: 70%

Max Explosive Mitigation: 45%

You would have damage counters for each and as you took damage, you could have different bars that would show what damage type was dealing the most damage.  Each would mitigate independently and as such, capitals would bypass it far easier than frigates which only have one damage type.  This would make capitals more powerful (which is needed to make it realistic) and would neutralize spams (another very good thing).

It would give more depth to a game as dealing this damage to this ship does a lot, but not so much over here...  It would make microing needed like never before though...


Simply put, it would be awesome, but having be independent types would almost turn it into medieval elemental style...  This won't happen and though I would love it, it would generate more negative feedback than good...

Reply #5 Top

Simply put, don't mess with the system..  It would be such an overhaul that it would take sims up to V 10.999  You don't want such a drastic change...  

The AI is programmed well.  (I know there are issues, but come on, it saves you a crap load of microing automatically...)  As such, the computer does a good job of handling it as is...

As for processor usage, hehehe...  The most processor intense thing is obviously graphics but that is followed by AI...  The AI is a ridiculously long chunk of code that sucks up a ton of processor power...  If you messed with the mitigation as I said, you would kill your CPU...  If you did it your way, then you end up with something unrealistic (because a ship has multiple shield projectors and as such, the computer could adjust each one independently)...

 

(If you are wondering why I didn't just edit, it is because it doesn't really go along with my previous post and it was more of a third party view.)

Reply #6 Top

Hi Volt_Cruelerz. You missed some things in my post.

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 5
by having three capital ships with separate damage types, you can almost completely negate mitigation as they fire in series, thus confusing the shield and destroying the concept
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote


My original post: "(But don't let AI flip back and forth between almost similar mitigation potentials! That would cause a "thrashing", and the shields may never mitigate any hits at all. There should be a threshold, say "choose best mitigation type if it is X points more than current type".)"

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 5
you could have different bars that would show what damage type was dealing the most damage.  Each would mitigate independently
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote


My original post: "A ship being hit will have to decide which weapon class type to defeat. It's shield mitigation would only work for 1 weapon class type at any one time. (Please display which type the mitigation is currently targetting.)"

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 5
Simply put, don't mess with the system..  It would be such an overhaul that it would take sims up to V 10.999  You don't want such a drastic change...
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote


I agree. But I would change the manual to explain this form of shield mitigation.

Think of mitigation as "kinetic capacitors" that store up damage energy (kinetic energy) from incoming weapons fire. The more the incoming kinetic energy (damage), the more charged up the kinetic capacitors will be, improving their efficacy.

Kinetic capacitors can work by spreading incoming energy to the surrounding space. Changing the vector of incoming energy will require energy itself. A low-charged kinetic capacitor can only deflect incoming energy to a small angle outwards, therefore still letting through significant damage. A high-charged kinetic capacitor has more energy/ability to deflect incoming damage to a larger angle outwards, thereby effecting a higher level of damage mitigation.

Also, this explanation will follow for how ships don't get holes punched in them enough to allow loss of crew. Secondary shields still hold the mitigation effect over the entire hull, after primary shields have been depleted. Secondary shields also make use of kinetic capacitors to spread damage over the hull, so a ship is either completely holding or entirely exploding. (Save for external systems leaking antimatter, of course).

Lastly, all capacitors in real life lose their charge over time, so shield mitigation decays over time.

Since you're writing a book, let me give some suggestions. :)

A loud bang announces the arrival of the fleet. The space behind them violently claps back together after being forcefully pried open for phase jump.

Captain Pike looks apprehensively across the wide image at the front of the bridge. Forward visuals are composed by multiple hidden cameras in the exterior hull. Space-faring ships today have no windows, no vulnerable openings for incoming weapons fire or sudden solar flares. All is serene, the nearby planet peacefully aglow in the warmth of the distant sun.

"Bam!". Another loud bang. The Kol shakes violently under a sudden impact.

The new tactical officer, Pavel Chekov, snaps to attention instantly. "Shields down! Secondary shields online. Kinetic capacitors charged up to max. Mitigation at 67%".

A miscalculated phase jump? A collision? Where's the enemy? Pike is at once confused and angry. Intelligence didn't say anything, as usual.

A painfully long 8 seconds passes, silent. Conn officer Niobe Watts is poised to take evasive action.

"Space anomaly to port side!", screams Pavel.

A large ship of alien design looks like it is shedding a cloak of transparent fabric. Advanced local phase technology, Pike thinks. Sneaky bastards.

"Evasive action, sir?", asks Niobe, loud and imploring. Fear grips the entire bridge instantly.

"No use running from an enemy ship after just 1 hit", Pike says in as calm and controlled a manner as he can. "There could be more enemies around. We don't want to be tricked into the arms of a larger beast".

Pike knows that the crew is safe, as long as the hull holds. Today's kinetic capacitor technology is able to spread damage over the entire hull, preventing debilitating punches that could poke holes in the hull and leech crew out to space.

A second blast shakes the ship violently. "Hull rating down to 80%!". Pavel scrambles over the controls to monitor and adjust defence systems. "4 more hits to bring us down, sir!".

The 2 Hoshikos behind are already moving up to send repair bots.

At almost the same time, 2 Domina Subjugators decloaked around the first enemy ship. What? The Advent has acquired new cloaking technology so soon?

"Fire all weapons on the subjators now", Pike says as calmly as before. Pike can feel the fear slipping away. The bridge knows its captain has made a good gamble.

"All weapons opening on subjators now, sir", Pavel responds. "Antimatter readings on the first ship is low."

"Good", Pike heaved a sigh of relief ever so slightly. "2 boulders in 10 seconds is enough for now."

Reply #7 Top

Uhh... My book has nothing to do with Sins other than it is sci-fi...

But anyways... The different bars was a seperate idea... It was something I was adding...

As for the thrashing...  It could still occur...  Have to ships that are NOT on auto attack could be beside your ship...  All you have to do is switch back and forth between having one attack and the other one wait and you end up with the same result.. unless of course it carries over from one damage type to another, but that wouldn't make sense...

 

Oh.. and as far as completely together or completely destroyed... You could always use the one in my book...  you could use the APR-DPR system...

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 7
Uhh... My book has nothing to do with Sins other than it is sci-fi...
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote


Oh, and I was so hoping someone would write a book on Sins. :) There's no actual storyline in the game.

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 7
As for the thrashing...  It could still occur...  Have to ships that are NOT on auto attack could be beside your ship...  All you have to do is switch back and forth between having one attack and the other one wait and you end up with the same result..
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote


I actually thought this through best I could.

Say 1 laser ship fires lasers at target for a time, raises mitigation against lasers up to 57%. Laser ship moves away.

Say 1 autocannon ship fires autocannons at target for a time, raises mitigation against autocannons up to 57%. At the same time, mitigation (lessons learned by target's computer, so to speak) against lasers are decaying. But the decay rate will obviously need to be less than the "learning rate" (mitigation increase rate), or mitigation serves no purpose at all!

Now, autocannon ship moves away. Laser ship comes back at target, but finds that mitigation against lasers is now starting from 40%. Oops. So lessons learned in the past 10 seconds are still effective.

At some point, as the laser and autocannon ships take turns, they'll find the target's mitigation against both weapon classes are hovering around max.

If both now attack at the same time, the target will choose to block just 1 weapon class, given that mitigation against both are at max of 57%.

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 7
Oh.. and as far as completely together or completely destroyed... You could always use the one in my book...  you could use the APR-DPR system...
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote


What's the APR-DRP system?

I was hoping to use Sins mechanisms to explain Sins phenomena. Manual says that shields can be tuned to mitigate damage, but that doesn't make sense. Tuning mitigation for a weapon class, say laser, shouldn't also achieve mitigation for another weapon class, say autocannon.

The only way to explain the "mitigation per damage" mechanism in Sins is to use some form of kinetic (or "incoming damage energy") capacitors thing.

Reply #9 Top

So essentially you want my idea without the bars displaying each separate miti at once.  And I do agree with this concept (that is what I said earlier) as it would work, but it will suck up a lot of computing power...

There actually is a guy writing a sins book..  I can't remember which forum its in though...

 

As for the OPR-DPR system (the "A" was a typo...), it relies on the concept that ships are approximately 95% structure and 5% nanites.  When one part of the hull is damaged, the nanites remove matter from other parts of the ship to fill the gap.  Now, eventually, this continues until:

A.  The captain orders them to start converting energy into matter to help fill the gaps.

B.  The ship's hull material reserves are depleted and the hull becomes thin.  At that point, it does not take much effort to destroy.  Upon punching through the hull, it is likely that you will find the fusion generators powering the ship.  (AM works, but unless you build a particle accelerator around a white hole, good luck getting very much it.)  Once you hit this, the ship goes supernova.  For this reason, a ship is in one piece or in thousands.

As for the acronym...  It stands for offensive and defensive power rating.  It is a linear scale.  an OPR of 100 is enough to kill a person regardless of where they are hit as unarmored civilians have a DPR of 0.  As for a soldier today, it would take a OPR of 150ish because of their armor.  It is not directly applicable to todays armor as we don't have nanites, but that is just a rough idea for you...