AI maybe a bit too predictable?

from Stardock Forums
I'm starting to find the AI largely unchallenging at I've noticed that all of them seem to follow a fairly predictable pattern. By that I mean that it seems that AI empires behave identically to one another. They all share the same research patterns.

I've found that I can wheel and deel for technologies in the same way from each empire. I've found that they almost never start a war with you of their own volition if you have a stronger military than them (in other words they dont take risks). They dont react to culture bombing if you plant a ton of starbases just outside of a sector that contains their planets.

In short, I find that the computer is rediculously easy to beat on all levels up to and including intelligent (Painful) Crippling is a little more challenging because of their bonus. But in all cases, I can keep more or less cause up technology-wise by getting as many trade goods and wheeling and dealing.

Just about all the empires follow this same behavior: If you have a sufficient military force, you can attack, make peace (while extorting technologies), attack and repeat a couple times. While they do get wise to this eventually, they could catch on a little bit faster than this on the tougher levels.

This one has been pointed out, but for some inexplicable reason, the AI doesn't exploit their starbase resources to their fullest.

The above behavior I describe is applicable up to and including the Crippling setting (AI all on Genius). I'm not in first, but am holding my own, and gradually wearing down the Acreans. The torians and Altarians are the two most powerful on the board, and they both got my back (ie... if I wanted, I could have an alliance). The Dregin aren't a factor. To borrow another poster's analogy (sorry for forgetting your name), that rolled up newspaper on the nose of the Dregin would probably break their nose.

I'm thinking I'm going to have to step up to Massachistic or something, because its a forgone conclusion that I'm going to win my first gigantic game (most likely by tech unless I get some luck on my side in some of these skirmishes)

I hope that we get this much hyped metaverse feature turned on where we can download the strategies used by players into the game AI and play it. Whatever happened to that feature anyways? It was hyped only a couple months before release and now its not there? That was one of the big selling points about this game.

SeanB
708 views 34 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
I hope that we get this much hyped metaverse feature turned on where we can download the strategies used by players into the game AI and play it.

Count me in. At least the Metaverse could give some information about what a player actually did. Currently it´s not much more than a (very basic) Hall of Fame which you have to go online to even watch. :notsure:
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
I'm still having great fun with the game and the AI. I don't have as much time to play as many others here, so that helps.

I DO agree though that it would be nice to get that Metaverse option going. The AI is good, but it can learn a LOT from human players still.

~SDC~
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Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
I am starting to feel that predictability too. Although, we should not kid ourselves. As sophisticated as a computer AI is, we are still nowhere in terms of (artificial) intelligence. Sure, a computer can beat a human at chess, but it is only because it can browse through a library of millions of moves within tenths of a second. There is no intelligence involved.

Overall, considering current limitations in both technology and development theories, I think GalCiv did a pretty good job, compared to other 'AI'.

~SDC~
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
FYI - the metaverse thing is not something that the players can download. It's for the developers to look at the games and see how they can change the game's AI in future patches. So really it already is being used, and the AI is getting better with each patch, but I agree that it is still way too predictable right now.
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Modemboy, the metaverse as it is currently was meant for alot more than this. If you look up all the articles on Galactic Civilizations on Gamespot.com, it came out of Frogboy's own mouth that the Metaverse was being designed so that the game could download strategies from the metaverse, and even download individual player strategies (such as those employed by Ray Chua, et al) That was one of the things that sold me on this game and sadly one area where it disappoints. Now that this game has been out for about a month and no indication that this being addressed, I'm beginning to wonder why brag about it to Gamespot if it wasn't even ready for release or wont be released?
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Now that this game has been out for about a month and no indication that this being addressed, I'm beginning to wonder why brag about it to Gamespot if it wasn't even ready for release or wont be released?


You bought the game didn't you? There's your answer. :CONGRAT:
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
I dont completely follow Drav. The question was meant to ask, why would Brad brag to gamespot about this certain feature to Metaverse if it wasn't ready to release or wouldn't be released? The fact that I bought the game from reading these articles isn't the answer to why he would say things like that. Now if you were to counter "He would say that to drum up sales", then that would make the above boasts to gamespot disingenuous and misleading. I bought the game in part for that and in part because supposedly the AI was so great. While it does provide some entertainment, there's just too much predictability and too long of an endgame to be all that.
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

In the long term, we hope to implement it where you can download content from the metaverse directly.

But in the near term, we've been updating the AI based on the data from the metaverse. In short, the AI updates have been based on metaverse data already. It's just not automated.

When we were designing the metaverse, one thing we didn't take into account is the sheer volume of cheese. People blocking of resources with scouts, blocking planets with sensor buoys, and other such nonsense. As a result, doing such an auto download would be disastrous since the last thing we want is for the computer players to do this kind of thing.

The AI will generally react to a given strategy in a fairly specific way. If it seems "predictable" my advice would be to try playing with a different strategy. It's like if I was playing Warcraft III and the AI was building units and buildings in a specific pattern, is that "predictable" sure?

If you're looking for more variety, use the Ctrl-N feature to bring up more intresting maps rather than just getting the one where all the stars are around you and the AI is isolated. That is one thing we've seen a lot of in the metaverse games submitted. The Ctrl-N feature was put in so that players could control the type of game they wanted to have.

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
Yes I have noticed that the CTRL-N feature does create some variety. The current game I'm running, I'm playing crippling level gigantic galaxy. I got boxed in early on from three different directions.... Drengin/Torian to the south and west, and Acreans to the right. Altarians ...well seemingly the entire bottom half of the map.

I've had to slog my way toward the right after I started breaking down the Acreans. Now that I got them brought down, what I have left is to work on the western part of the map.

As to the blockade chese you refer to, there is a way around it and that is to recognize the blockade and run the blockade. That's how it is in real life.... you can run the blockade and trigger or war, or move on to something else.

I would think it more interesting if the AI *could* recognize that there's a scout blockade and send a military to clean up the mess.... If that were to take place, it would definitely make some players think twice about setting a blockade.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
I don't know about this folks, but when I get a game like this I want to beat the AI's like everyone else, but on square terms - not through bizarre cheese tactics.

Let's say that Frogboy builds the AI to react to all the cheese tactics, someone will counteract that by removing some file the AI expects to see during its turn, thus opening up some other loophole. I just don't get how this is fun?

I'm cranky.
-Anx
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Frogboy: "When we were designing the metaverse, one thing we didn't take into account is the sheer volume of cheese."

Much as I dislike cheese, this would have been the very first thing for me to expect. Where have you spent your life? :p LOL ;) :)

"If you're looking for more variety, use the Ctrl-N feature to bring up more intresting maps rather than just getting the one where all the stars are around you and the AI is isolated."

I agree. You could use ctrl-N to make the game more difficult. Start in a corner, with just one reasonable planet, surrounded by Ais.

This is what I did in my latest game (I didn´t use ctrl-N, this setup just happened). However, if you manage to win from such a position, you will get a really lousy score. Which brings up my ceterum censeo, that the scoring system is totally broken. It doesn´t reward good play, just cheese, cheese and more cheese. :notsure:

So another reason why you should have taken the cheese into account is, because then there would have been a chance to provide for an at least moderately cheese-safe scoring system. :)
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
"I don't know about this folks, but when I get a game like this I want to beat the AI's like everyone else, but on square terms - not through bizarre cheese tactics. Let's say that Frogboy builds the AI to react to all the cheese tactics, someone will counteract that by removing some file the AI expects to see during its turn, thus opening up some other loophole. I just don't get how this is fun? I'm cranky."

If its designed like I think it is, you can't just unilaterraly tweak an AI by merely removing a file... if that's so, people would be castrating the AI left and right and you'd really see some crazy metaverse scores PS--- still can't get the quote feature to work right from the web browser
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Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
I never used the Ctrl+N feature... I was a bit disappointed, that I won my first Intelligent game.

But really I cannot see, how this is achieveable everytime for some people without ctrl+n! I now started my first game on a gigantic map (I always played on a medium or smaller map so far) and I was in a corner with only 5 systems with habitable planets. I am far back on everything and just got a war declared by the Drengins, I share another cluster with. They are big compared to me but the Torians are even bigger!

I'd really like to see how you would have won that and on top of that unchallenging!

I think it's really like Frogboy says: [rather than just getting the one where all the stars are around you and the AI is isolated. That is one thing we've seen a lot of in the metaverse games submitted.]

As for the Metaverse: Why not remove the scoring at all? I think there are still enough submissions. Filter them after the level on what people are playing and see what they do.
For competition Gotm's are much better!
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
I dont completely follow Drav. The question was meant to ask, why would Brad brag to gamespot about this certain feature to Metaverse if it wasn't ready to release or wouldn't be released?

Because that's what developers do. They promise a feature, but because of deadlines they know they won't get it into the game before it releases, but they want the hype already out there so people will buy the game. Then eventually it does go in. I'm not faulting Brad for that, it's just what devs are forced to do by their marketing departments, etc.

As for the AI auto-downloading strategies, I perfectly see Frog's point that they don't want AIs downloading cheese. I'm glad that they are 'moderating' what the AI downloads from players. That's a smarter way to do it, imo, but also creates a lot more work for the devs.

As for cheese, well never forget the old adage: You get what you reward. If you reward cheese, players will use cheese. If you want people to stop being cheesy, then remove the rewards for being cheesy -- i.e. change the scoring formulas. I don't particularly care, as I have yet to upload a game to the matrix, er, metaverse, and don't really care what others think of my score. But that's just me.
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
"As for cheese, well never forget the old adage: You get what you reward. If you reward cheese, players will use cheese. If you want people to stop being cheesy, then remove the rewards for being cheesy -- i.e. change the scoring formulas. I don't particularly care, as I have yet to upload a game to the matrix, er, metaverse, and don't really care what others think of my score. But that's just me."

That's not the solution. The solution as I've stated is to have the AI combat the cheese so its no longer rewarding the player. The only reason the cheese works is because of a deficiency of the AI. And so what if you download an AI that's employing cheese tactics.... you as the player would know to combat the tactics yes? Suddenly the cheese is no longer rewarded. Now if the AI knew how to run blockades, realize that you're SF heavy, or *gasp* actually took a gamble here and there, then suddenly that cheese is no longer rewarded.

I said it once and I'll say it again. The people that generally cry cheese are the elitist that either is unwilling to change their tactics around the so-called cheese or unable to cope with it. Best example is the British during the revolutionary war....they didn't like the colonialists "Cheese" tactics. Those tactics being what we now know as guerilla warfare. And lets face it folks... the Cuban Missile Crisis was stopped by a naval blockade. Russians that time had two choices, run the blockade and declare war, or back down.

It's a shame that Stardock would take the easy way out here.

SeanB
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
it is hard to blockade in 3 dimensions. the amount of area to cover a systemis vastly much greater than with an island.
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
hard maybe, but not impossible The point is this is a 2d game, so any thought of 3d goes out the window here. Secondly you would think in the future, militaries will learn how to blockade in 3 dimensions as well
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Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
As for the Metaverse: Why not remove the scoring at all? I think there are still enough submissions. Filter them after the level on what people are playing and see what they do.
For competition Gotm's are much better!

I think you underestimate the carrot on a stick aspect to the scoring. I do not play for score beyond the fact that I no longer even consider completing a game via tech or culture because the current formulas punish you severely in the absence of massive cheese mongering to counteract these penalties. If I win a game with anything over 300 points, it gets submitted.

On the other hand, remove the scoring and I would probably never submit another game again. Why exactly would I want to go to the trouble to connect my laptop to my LAN to get *nothing* in return? No, like every other apathetic fool on the planet I'd be content to let other people do the charity work for me.

On the other hand, as silly as it is, give me some shiny virtual medals and stripes and I'm submitting like lab monkey pressing a lever for a food pellet ;)

~SDC~
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Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
Well, I would still try to submit in the hope that it gets to improve the AI and make my future games more fun.

We do love our medals :HOT:
It shouldn't take too many engineering minutes/hours to crank a couple more of those out?
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
There is predictability to every PC game known to man (except for chess.)Of course, there are also well documented cases of ZERO AI in many games.
GalCiv does ok for a computer game. If anyone is looking for actual HAL-type AI, I suggest they wait until after the cure for cancer is found.

Of course, when I play any game non stop, even I, a person never accused of being a genius, can begin to figure actions out. I play lots of other games so that each game I play a game itseems fresh. Now, I may not ever MASTER each game, but if it comes down to mastering a game for a score but getting bored by spending so much time with a game, or having FUN................uh, gee which would I choose? Let me get back to you all on that. Duh.
Can the AI be tweaked to enhance it further? Of course. But my friends, I am sorry to say that, unless you are in your twenties, I do not believe you will get totally non predictable sci-fi type AI in your lifetime. If it does become avaialble, I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be used for other applications instead of games to start. But thats just me. I'm silly. What do I know.
Game on!
Cheers.
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
I'm still in my twenties! :)
totally non predictable sci-fi type AI
yum.... :d

"My Mommy doesn't hate me! Because I'm special, and, unique! Because there's never been anyone like me before! Mommy loves Martin because he is real and when I am real, Mommy's going to sing to me, and tuck me in my bed, and listen to what I say, and she will cuddle with me, and tell me everyday a hundred times a day that she loves me!"
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
There are 'cheese' tactics that have nothing to do with real warfare. How in the world could a few scout ships or colony ships completely encircle something to prevent your entrance?

It seems one major 'cheese' is blockades of one type or another. Is there a way to correct blockades? It seems most of the cheeses I've heard of involve this. If they could get rid of this somehow, I would think cheeses would be reduced. But not elimininated. On the strat forum, you can read about plenty of cheeses. Sadly, I think some people will always take advantage of them, if they can. A few bad apples and all that..

fleabitfox
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
Why should Stardock (or anyone for the matter) be concerned about cheese if not for the Metaverse and "fairness" of scoring? If a single player playing his own game loves cheese, let him enjoy it! :)

Ultimately, Stardock needs to decide whether they want to continue to burn resources eliminating cheese and perfecting scoring. Its a long hard road as there will always be cheese and there will always be unhappy scorers.
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top

Incidentally, I never stated that downloading of metaverse content would be part of the shipping game.

I always stated "eventually, we hope to...".

And has time has shown, such a feature would have been a disaster. The problem with cheese is that they are impossible to predict (by their very definition - cheese tactics are tactics in which a player takes advantage of a loophole in the game rule set - com napping in Total Annihilation, using the Orcs in WC3 to build a tower right outside your opponent's base).

Being a game developer is a lot like playing a strategy game. You only have so many resources to divy up.

So you have .1% of the popualtion employing cheese tactics, but getting higher scores and then demanding significant effort be made to change the AI to react to this. And then you have the 99.9% of people who don't use cheese tactics who would like to see things like the AI more balanced at lower difficulty levels, play more intelligently at higher levels, and so forth.

It seems obvious to me where the resources should go. ;)

Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
Frogboy, I believe you did state it during a game spot interview...the following is your own words I copied and pasted from the article. The article can be viewed in its entirety at http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/galacticcivilizations/preview_2847556-2.html


One of the more interesting innovations, though, is going to be in the metaverse. Galactic Civilizations is a single-player game in itself. But users who play on Stardock.net will be playing as part of the metaverse. Think of it as all the players who play the game combined into a single galaxy (or universe) where their victories, defeats, and campaigns are recorded. From that, we put together a map of the galaxy in which individuals or empires are mapped in real time. Additionally, players can opt to allow us to record their games in the metaverse itself. The AI can then automatically download the strategies used by the top-ranked players and incorporate it. As any game AI developer can tell you, sometimes the difference between a challenging computer player and a lame one is something simple, like what technology path they take or what order they build certain things and at what times they do so. These are things that the AI can download and thus simulate different players. We have quite a bit of experience in this sort of thing because of our Object Desktop Network (www.objectdesktop.net) code. When you combine all these things together, you can only hope to have a strategy game that truly feels organic--like you are playing a major part in an epic story that changes each time you play. And a story that interacts with the thousands of other players involved.

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