Draginol Draginol

Why do liberals think they are so smart?

Why do liberals think they are so smart?

I've written about this many times in the past but one of the more off putting features of American liberals is their smugness.  If you disagree with them it is only because you are either ignorant or evil. This tends to result in them losing elections. Often.

I just read a very interesting blog about this that I thought I'd share here:

This conceit of liberals -- which sometimes I think is all that sustains them, and all that keeps them liberals in the first place -- that liberals have some sort of a monopoly on brains, wit, taste, and, yes, even basic humanity will be their undoing. It always is. They keep making the same mistakes over and over and over and over again, and we're the dumb ones.

They, the ones who have made the same ten mistakes every single election since 1968, are the smart ones. Right?

Let's check the list: Demean an opponent who you really ought to suspect might be rather intelligent as an ignorant boob, bordering on a genuine diagnosable moron, to such a degree that when the candidate speaks and reveals himself as reasonably intelligent, he actually seems to be nearly a genius.

Demean those who don't live in "cosmopolitan" cities as bumpkins who have nothing to contribute to politics or culture -- not their own ideas, their own aspirations, their own fears, their own traditions -- except for the votes they're expected to cast for the Democratic elites who scorn them.

And all the rest of it.

Now, after the fact, the left is convulsing and gnashing their teeth. How could we have allowed ourselves to so demean Sarah Palin as to turn her home-run speech into a genuine star-making speech by lowering expectations so much through our derision!?!

How could you have done that, you ask. That's not the right question. The right question is Is it even possible for you to avoid doing that?, because you do every. Single. God. Damn. Election. Cycle.

It works in my favor, and yet I'm still horrified to see you doing it every time.

Have you ever done anything else? Are you capable of doing anything differently? Even as conservatives snicker at you and tell you to your smug fat faces that you're making a gross strategic error, you continue doing so just the same!

We don't even bother to hide our snickering at you any longer. We don't bother to conceal this basic error from you -- we simply declare it. We don't have to hide this, we don't have to try to avoid tipping you off that you're making this mistake for the thirtieth time, because we know you won't listen anyway!

That's the truly delightful thing about this. We don't have to scheme with each other and say, "Quiet down, don't give the game away," when a fellow conservative points the error out. It doesn't matter! We can scream this from the rooftops for all the good it does you.

It's like we're fighting a war and we don't even have to bother coding our messages to the troops because we know there's no chance at all you'll even bother to pause to read our communications. "Don't bother us with your silly orders and tactics and strategies," you tell us, "We can figure out how to beat you silly people well enough on our own without any of your stupid-brained help."

You can? You sure about that? Well, whatever, buddy. If you think so. Seems to me you guys are 3-4 since 1994 -- a losing record -- but if you guys want to keep following the same game plan, be my guest.

Ultimately the liberals' sin is their smugness. Not even so much because most people recoil from the assumption of superiority, both intellectual and moral, by those who have accomplished nothing exceptional in life except for reliably voting and "thinking" liberal, as if casting a vote the "correct" way slaps 30 points on to your IQs and counts for 100 hours of community service and child mentoring.

No, the main problem with that smugness, that belief that you're sooo very fucking clever, is that you're actually not particularly clever at all, and the great gap between your personal estimation of your intelligence and the actual real-world measure of it is wide enough to stumble into and take a painful fall. Perhaps if you weren't so very convinced of your own innate entitlement to rule, you'd spend less time seething at a public unwilling to concede that rule to you, and less time trying to trick the public into voting for you by concealing your true beliefs, and more time trying to figure out what the public actually wants in its government, and how to provide with them with that.

You know the big difference between conservatives and liberals in terms of political acumen? You guys never see this stuff coming, because you're so convinced of your innate right to control other people's lives. You convince ourselves you're always the smartest guys in the room, and anyone who disagrees with you must either be so stupid or so luminescently evil they could never prevail in a campaign.

The Ronald Reagans and Sarah Palins surprise you, because you just can't even conceive of them. Your entire sense of self-worth depends on the proposition Liberal = Smart, Good, Conservatives = Stupid, Bad, so you can't imagine clever, good people opposing you.

You go into every election thinking the score is already 24-0 in your favor -- after all, you have nothing but vicious, racist, gay-bashing hobo-killing morons in your way. How can you, the Moral and Intellectual Elect of the Earth, possibly fail?

And yet you do. More frequently than you win.

Eh. I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you this. As you've demonstrated in every past election, you're not going to listen anyhow.

Ya fuckin' dunces.

Oh, and... Good job so demeaning her you half-convinced the public she was a drooling imbecile and yee-haw hollerin' bumpkin who'd embarrass herself on stage.

Sure, sure. Smart move.

A former beauty queen -- who could have imagined she might be comfortable in front of a large, critical crowd, and might in fact even thrive in the spotlight?

A former television sportscaster -- who would have predicted she'd have some poise and savvy playing to a camera?

Amen. I have run into this in discussions with family and friends when politics come up. I try to avoid talking politics because, like many of you reading this, I keep up with it very closely, I'm pretty knowledgeable on the topic.

Most people, left or right, aren't that up on the issues. Yet, despite their lack of relative knowledge on the issues, they will presume to be more enlightened or educated simply because they hold left wing views.

82,436 views 88 replies
Reply #26 Top

That's thing Brad, those responses you put that some liberals have I've never heard in debate I've had with them on those kind of issues.  I'm not nearly convinced that human induced global warming is real and instead might just be a natural cycle of the earth's climate.  I've seen the data from NOAA and the time frame they're using is such a miniscule amount relative to the scale of what they're trying to project out to (different use of projection here) that I'm not convinced.  But I've never had any liberal call me an idiot or dumb. 

 

I usually avoid solely political blogs nowadays so I can't really cite either the extreme leftish or rightish sites out there.  (The last time I did keep up with those types of blogs was on the order of  years ago and I was dissatisfied with either the amount of namecalling or smug condescending tone from both party lines that I quit reading them)  I see it as much like how most people are good, but the few that are bad make the most noise or get the most attention so it seems out of proportion.  In that I notice that the amount of insane or annoying leftists or rightests are there are miniscule compared to the people closer to the mean.  Just that the extremists get the most air time or strive to get the most air time so they end up giving a bad image to the more reasonable folks.  At least that's been my experience.  I've got into arguments with what I would call extremists (in more or less even amounts left and right) and usually just cut off the conversation b/c it's not worth the effort on my part since I see it being a fruitless venture.  (extremists in my view in that I usually try citing facts and my interpretations of those facts and usually get called a retard in retaliation).

Reply #27 Top

Intelligence is a value, remember the positive thinking movement. Imagine a person walking around thinking he's a dumbass. He's not likely going to amount to anything, because as the old saying goes... You've got to BELIEVE in yourself!!!


I admire the intellect, and believe you should be proud of that. Perhaps the truest mark of what traits I admire in others is my favorite characters on television... Alan Shore of Boston Legal, House of House MD, and Horatio Cane of CSI Miami. Moralistic intellectuals of integrity working hard to see through what is right.

What annoys me is not smugness, but hypocrazy. People who preach family values yet solicit gay sex in the bathroom. Amoung other things, red necks who claim to have family values while doing their sister. We're all familiar with the various types of lowlives in our society. But one thing that absolute annoys me is lowlives who claim to have "values" when they don't. Family values was a sham from the very beginning.

What's interesting, is that personal responcibility is a big issue, and one simply has to note teenage pregnancy as an issue in this campaign. When conservatives criticize teenage pregancy it's good, but when liberals do, they are smug. Right... Teenage pregnancy is bad, it was 20 years ago, it still is today, but somehow Sarah Palin is exonerated for bad parenting... Right... Where's the personal responcibility, the accountibility.

Personal responcibility IS a family value, and I'll go up against the poor ethics of rap music just as much as I'll criticize homophobic red necks in the blue hills of the mountains who like to do their sister. There's a lot of people out there with bad values. As Horatio Cane said aptly, the world is FULL of dissapointment.

This article neglects one thing, the demographic is changing, there's a lot more college students now, and we like smart people. College students are what brought an end to Hilary Clinton's campaign, because she just couldn't get a lock on their vote. Although she did manage to do well amoung people who are to afraid of the idea of a *cough* black president. And I personally have a few of these people in my family (fortunately, not my immediate family), so I can attest to the fact that there are real people out there who think like that. And it's a damn shame. If you want proof of this, note the unusual voting patterns of West Virginia and Kentucky... some counties Obama only got 5% of the vote, and in some of these places, you'd swear they came right out of the 18th century. CNN did a tour of a small rural town in Kentucky, and it was a wierd scary place, it looked like a pre-industrial age town straight out of the civil war. And guess what, some of those people are still living in the mindset of the civil war. (Remember George Wallace, gee, I wonder who's getting the George Wallace votes these days) There's still a fair number of people out there who oppose the civil rights movement, although as nation, we've evolved beyond that era, so they don't get air time anymore... Well, with the possible exception of Michael Savage.

What you'll find is that with me, I'm a liberal, with staunch conservative values. I believe in personal responcibility, family values, ethics, morals, going to school, self improvement, and I think that we should flaunt those things as we are PROUD of them. Should someone diminish the importance of their Harvard/Ivy League education or the fact that they were damn good in Law school. By the way, Legislators write laws, and Presidents sign them, so I'd think that someone finishing near the top of class in Law school would make an excellent candidate to say, I dunno... Sign bills in LAW... To wit.


I know, as I'm going to school, each class I get a damn good grade in makes me proud. It's important to have values, morality and integrity. At work, I work hard to uphold my self-image.


Some call it smugness, others call it confidence. And as someone once told me, people can be very intimidated by confidence. Ever watch Barack Obama, the perfect poise, as if he's spent years projecting his body language, with perfect speech deliveries, on point, delivered with sincerity every time. The perfect smile, the infallable values of a hard working former middle class man who arose through hard work and dedication. Obama is the epitome of conservative values... hard work, personal responcibility, integrity, values, etc. He knows how to deliver a speech, why, because he practiced. Delivery is important, the ability to stand with poise is important. And you bet, that speaking ability will come in handy, whenever the need to meet with a foreign leader is important, because we will need a damn good negoitator. Oh, did I mention I'm a fan of the Donald as well... You should see the things he had to say about George Bush and negoitation. Donald Trump is a smart guy, I admire that in people.


The problem with Republicans, is that unfortunately for them, the last one isn't the brightest of the bunch, and McCain's no Einstein either. It's just that the Republican party tends to attract trigger happy hawks who want to invade countries more than it attracts people who are proponents of SOUND policies with carefully thoughtout implications. For that, you have the democrats.

Right now, with Fannie and Co. proving that not only can governments be corrupt and make bad choices, but so can major economic institutions. You see, that's why we have regulations, to create a stable economic environment so that major economic institutions don't make bad... (no, scratch that) inept choices.

You see regulations use the principle of "an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure". Without laws, there is nothing but chaos, as people lack the personal responcibility to avoid the temptation to make risky choices that have a chance of a reward. We should have a system based on responcibility.

Personally, I think people admire bad traits in other people anyways, but intelligence is not one of them. I mean, serial killers actually have fans... Mmm. Then again, I am not a fan of serial killers, or rapists, or even speeders. Personally, I'm going to get a bumper sticker that says "To speeders, either pass me or relax and enjoy the ride, cause I'm not breaking the law for you". Moral confidence is never a bad thing. I invented sarcastic self-righteousness. A kind of unique fusion of two characters, House and Horatio Cane.


Note, I do not endorse serial killers, rap music, criminals, politicians soliciting gay sex in bathrooms, priests fondling little boys, red necks screwing their sister or any other amoral behavior. Welcome to the real moral values. It's called behaving like a dignified human being.

The problem with Republicans, is that they win, and because of their lack of values, they run things badly. However if you look at history... FDR, Kennedy, Clinton, Carter (with unique exception)... FDR, having won a world war and brought an end to the depression, leaving this country as a superpower. Kennedy, dedicating this country to a major project of landing a man on the moon... A major feet. Carter, prevailed over the worst stretch of economic period in American history, caused by the Arab oil embargo, not by any Democratic policy mind you. And then we have Clinton, who actually balanced the ****** budget. Who, mind you, actually used those fiscal conservative idelogy that republicans preach so much.  I'd have to say, fiscal conservatism is not a bad idea, but it requires actually DOING something. Haha. Of the republicans I admire Eisenhower, who adopted a massive plan to upgrade the road system with interstate highways, an improvement that really improved the economy.

Reagan's big mistake is that he considered that government is the problem. I'll correct that for Reagan... Irresponcible government is the problem. Responcibility ought to be first and foremost on the mind of every president. The attitude that government is the problem has given rise to derelects running the country, because blaming the government is just an excuse to run things badly. As in "government is the problem", so I don't have to do anything and um, just fiddle while New Orleans burns.


I don't think anyone can argue against this, George W. Bush is the stupidest president ever elected. I mean, just read any of the Bushisms books, he said the most amazingly retarded things that make 5th graders look good. And we vote for idiots because we can't stomach a little smugness. Suck it up and vote for someone smart for a change. It does a nation good.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting Artysim, reply 25

Yes, and dubbya knowingly lied in order to start a war that killed thousands and shredded your constitution to the point that he's basically a "unitary executive", what with warrantless domestic surveillance and now torture being back in vogue. 
End of Artysim's quote

Sigh.  This sort of discourge becomes tiresome.  There is no evidence that Bush "lied" to "start a war". None. This is an issue that has been gone over so many times that it's just old. It's about one step above the "and it's known that the CIA really killed JFK" or whatever. It's not "known". It's definitely debateable.

Similarly, you say he "shredded" the constitution. I hear this a lot. Which amendment or article of the constitution was "shredded"?

And the same thing on "torture". Very tireseome. Once upon a time, torture meant, well, torture. Now, we live in a world where being forced to stay awake a long time or water bordering is considered torture.

But you help make my point here, you state these things as if they are established facts. To disagree with your opinions is to disagree with "facts". They're not facts. They're your opinions.

 

That's thing Brad, those responses you put that some liberals have I've never heard in debate I've had with them on those kind of issues
End of quote

That really says more about how many debates you've had with liberals. You don't have to look far to find this stuff.  Just peruse Digg for an afternoon in the political areas and read the comments. And Digg is hardly some extremist site.

Reply #29 Top

ome call it smugness, others call it confidence. And as someone once told me, people can be very intimidated by confidence. Ever watch Barack Obama, the perfect poise, as if he's spent years projecting his body language, with perfect speech deliveries, on point, delivered with sincerity every time.
End of quote

No one objects to confidence.

What we object to is one side actively insulting the other side's intelligence with evidence of intelligence being purely dependent on holding the "correct" political opinion.

My favorite example is global warming. I'm a skeptic of human produced CO2 related global warming. The number of times on-line and off-line I've had my intelligence or educational background questioned simply because I'm a skeptic is innumerable.  

And the people who make claims of my low intelligence/education are people whose sole source of research is having seen "An Inconvenient Truth".  As if watching a movie makes them experts.

But as the original article indicates, the left can't really help themselves. It's part of their ideology and as a result, they manage to steal defeat out of the jaws of victory because they put off so many people.

The treatment of Palin these past few weeks has made me, someone who has sworn not to vote for McCain quite tempted simply to keep "those people" being "in power". 

Reply #30 Top

brad, i can't stand digg b/c it is too far left for me.  i go for the tech news and don't even open the comments or political posts anymore.  two themes I've finally come to terms with on digg is very left views and condescending atheists (both views don't bother me at all personally, but the condescending tone of both types on digg does)  i guess it just comes down to who we have personal contact with on a daily basis.  i've had a fair (not like...100s) of talks with liberals and haven't had a very significant portion happen really like mentioned in the article.  but.  i'm in texas (and not austin)...so maybe the liberals here are more reasonable than in your area (perhaps on account of there being fewer...I'm not sure).

-rattasak

Reply #31 Top

Here's probably a good summation:

If you think someone else is dumb or inferior to you simply because they hold a different political philosophy from you, then you should probably re-evaluate.

Reply #32 Top

Yes, and dubbya knowingly lied in order to start a war that killed thousands and shredded your constitution to the point that he's basically a "unitary executive", what with warrantless domestic surveillance and now torture being back in vogue.
End of quote

Again, stating an erroneous opinion as fact.  And validating Brad's point.  The TRUTH is you dont know it was a lie, and the evidence to date indicates they were not.  Faulty intelligence is not a lie.  And unitary executive?  Because the left has not gotten 100% of their wishes?  :LOL:

Warrantless domestic searches - you mean the ones Bill Clinton did?

You are funny.

Reply #33 Top

It's interesting how so many missed the point of the article, proved the point of the article and became some defensive, all at the same time. Sure this article can describe people from both parties, no one is denying or disputing that. What those who got offended failed to understand is that, while both parties share in this "insult the other party" game, Republicans are not known for doing that as part of the Party Modo, yet Democrats make it their most powerful weapon. Just as an example, how many insults and dispicable stories came about about Biden when Obama nominated him for VP? Compare that to Palin when McCain nominated her. How about when Obama flip flops? He was very strong opiniated about the surge not work, now all of a sudden he agrees it did. Where is the uproar from the Democrats who agreed with him and backed him when he said the surge did not work? How come you guys are not screaming about his betrayal? Not to mention how he switched from no drilling to "maybe we should". But you guys don't point that out about your candidate.

Yet time and again people like Brad, ParaTed and others have not held back at pointing out how disappointed they are that McCain is the Republican nominee. They are willing to admit they don't like the guy and would rather vote for Obama, 3rd party nominee or not vote at all. Every time one of our own screws up we throw him under the bus just as esily as we throw a Democrat under one. Many times has Bush been put down right on these forums by Republicans and Conservatives for things such as stemcell and immigration. But when ever a representative of the Democrat party does something stupid, like the guy who said "Maybe god really is on our side" when Gustav was on it's way to New Orleans or Obama's "former" pastor when he said "God Damn America", you guys quickly scream "they don't speak for all Democrats".

Reply #35 Top

Ya fuckin' dunces.
End of quote
Ah, so smugly said, ala Rove who thinks he's the smartest on the planet.

As for my humble yet elite opinion: Methinks the dragon with fire protests too much. :beer:

Reply #36 Top

Artysim said "lied about the war in order to start a war that killed thousands of and shredded your constitution to the point that he's a "unitary executive", what with the warrantless domestic surveillance and now torture being back in vogue."

Artysim some questions for you "Have you been to Iraq?" I'm going to say negative on that one and that you get most of your information from the our media.  One of Draginol's point was that: "have you heard anything about Biden's son?" NO because the media isn't going to talk about that.  NEWS FLASH: OUR MEDIA IS BIASED!  Surprise!!!  What's my point.  First, Iraq borders with a country called Iran to the northish.  The only thing that divides this border is a desert.  There is NO FENCE NO WATER JUST SAND!!!!  Let me just say that there have been items found at near THAT VERY border that the MEDIA HAS NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO REPORT ABOUT OR TO KNOW ABOUT.  To keep people from going in to major panic mode. Keep believing everything our media feeds you because we all know that they're not allowed to lie on TV.  BTW, Most Iraqis do appreciate us being there and also the war even with the lack of troops (again the Iranian border HAS NOTHING prevent the flow of anything so there was a HUGE INFUX from there) the media makes it seem like we were on verge of losing the war, which isn't true.  There were things that WE need to do differently again the border between those two countries being WIDE OPEN!

Second thing, is that 'dubbya' is not AN 'unitary executive', for the torture thing that you said that is in vogue now down in that prison in Cuba most of the prisoners were released and guess what 'dubbya' didn't want that to happen.  Did he get his way? NO, man what AN 'unitary executive'.  Just SO YOU know, at least 20 of those prisoners released went right back into fighting or are in command positions in Islamic forces.  I'm not saying that tortue is right, but fyi most of the world does torture. I gurantee and know for a fact that Iran and so does China tortue people, but you don't see people telling those two countries they shouldn't do that. 

Same goes with China and India with this whole 'global warming' thing.  Everyone is pointing a finger at us, but NO ONE is pointing a finger at these two countries.  Its as if we should know better and WE signed that Koyote treaty.  Again fyi, if we would continued to produce nuclear power plants at the right we were doing before three mile island. Guess what? We would have been able to compile 100% with that treaty by late 90s early 2000.  What China and India does actually affects our climate.

I am glad that you believe what the media states, especially dealing with the battle in Iraq.  Remember, there are somethings that this country doesn't want it citizens to know pertaining to the Iraq war. 

Artysim, we are not forcing them to convert to Chirstianity (I will say this ' those radicals Muslims will force you to if they had a chance' and trust me they WILL FORCE YOU).  I know people who went there and most of the youth there is sick of Islam.  Christianity does not believe in forced conversions. It is a choice, yes, you can bring up mistakes from the past.

Finally, Artysim, you said GB the 2nd "however seems to think that the world is a game of risk and has given up that alliance in order to get meeagre territorial gains and place troops and weapons on the border with Russia, which is not a smart move"  News flash: This whole year Russian hasn't really acted like a democracy.  I wonder where North Korea and Iran got their weapons?  I wonder where all those Nuclear Reactors have come from?  You say that's not a smart move, I wonder how we brought down the mighty Soviet Union hmmmm.  Russian also has  several different alliances with Iran. 

In your humble opinion, how should we handle Russia.  Don't forget Putin is just in the 'background' and  he's not PULLING ANY STRINGS anymore.

 

 

Reply #37 Top

Dr Guy,

Again, stating an erroneous opinion as fact.
End of quote

tsk tsk. Where did I say this was 100 % ironclad fact? I believe it to be true, but I am not debasing or ridiculing anyone else for not believing it. My opinion is that he knowingly lied, whereas Brad's opinion (I'm assuming, please correct me if I'm mistaken) is that he had faulty intelligence that he ran with. Which, if you made an intel mistake of that magnitude you would think that heads at the CIA would have rolled, but instead he gave Tenet a medal.... hhhmm.... anywho, I also agree with Brad's earlier statement that this is a long drawn out situation best left for another time. If you do want to press this point, however, I'd be more than happy to oblige!

Draginol-

Here's probably a good summation: If you think someone else is dumb or inferior to you simply because they hold a different political philosophy from you, then you should probably re-evaluate.
End of quote

And I agree with this 100%. Well said! I've gotten into many debates in which my only aim is  discussion, but as soon as I state an opinion on a topic the other side (quite often conservative, though not always) comes back with a personal attack "typical LIEberal, all you do is lie and hate freedom!!" kinda thing. It doesn't matter to me, but it is disapointing to see the walls go up and possibility for open-minded debate die the moment I say something the other side doesn't agree with.

 

Reply #38 Top

but as soon as I state an opinion on a topic the other side (quite often conservative, though not always) comes back with a personal attack "typical LIEberal, all you do is lie and hate freedom!!" kinda thing.

End of quote

That's odd because I often see you argue with people but I rarely see that.

Reply #39 Top

And the same thing on "torture". Very tireseome. Once upon a time, torture meant, well, torture. Now, we live in a world where being forced to stay awake a long time or water bordering is considered torture.
End of quote

Actually, torture was definied by the AG at the time as anything causing pain equivalent to organ failure or death. Which meant everything else was fair game. This included locking people inside a metal box small enough that they were forced into the fetal position (no room to do anything else, turn over etc) for indefinite periods of time. At random intervals, say after 15 hours, they would be pulled out of the box, allowed to stand up for another random interval (might be a few minutes, might be an hour) then thrown back in the box for another random amount of time, lather rinse repeat. This is just one technique that when mixed with a bunch of others (enforced stress positions while undergoing sensory deprivation, isolation with constant blasting music and strobelights and of course everyone's favorite, waterboarding) actually succeeded in turning lots of folks into basket cases and scarring them for life. Many of these folks never even had a trial, but were simply handed over to the U.S by militias abroad who said "this guy's a terrorist".

And then of course there's rendition. Sending someone to another country where you KNOW they will be unequivocally tortured the old fashioned way (electricity, pliars meet fingernails, random beatings) as happened to one of my countrymen when he was simply passing through the States on a connecting flight. Turned out he was completely innocent, oh well, tough luck for him that he spent a year in jail in Syria!

Reply #40 Top

That's odd because I often see you argue with people but I rarely see that.
End of quote

This coming from someone who's told me to F -off (well actually you said "F- u") several times on one thread. Just for expressing my opinion in the name of debate.

Reply #41 Top

Veiridia stated "and then we have Clinton, who actually balanced the ****** budget.  Who, mind you, actually used those fiscal conservative ideology that republicans preach so much."  Veiridia, did Clinton single handally do this?  Who controlled congress? Does a man by the first name Newt, ring a bell? Which party was he a part of?  Yeah, exactly!!!!!  If my memory serves me correctly it was HIS party that DEMAND that the budget will be balanced!  The President alone CAN NOT balance the budget.

Then you stated that some how Sarah Palin is a bad parent because her daughter is pregnant. Her daughter is a human, right?  Her daughter has a mind, right? YES AND YES!!  Her daughter can do things that maybe her mom disapproves.  I think most people posting here can say that they rebellied against their parents at one time or another.  Does that mean that their parents are bad? 

I love it when that one group of people say 'how can she be VP and take care of 5 children' again this group is the group that claims to be the party of the Minority and those who have been short changed by society. 


Veiridia, then you make a statement "I don't think anyone can argue against this, George W. Bush is the stupidest president ever elected.  I mean, just read any of the Bushims books, he said the most amazingly retarded things that make 5th graders look good."  You are committing a logical fallacy.  Trying to link someone's public speaking skills to their intelligence.  Just because someone isn't a great orator does not make them an idiot.  Bill Clinton probably was in the top 5 best orators that this country has ever had as a president.  He could literally speak his way out of anything, now does that make Bill a genius just because he has excellent public speaking skills?  Hitler was an excellent public speaker and was able to use the system to his advantage as well just because he was very chariasmatic does not mean he's intelligent.  Do you know who Theodore John Kaczynski is?  This guy is a genius (literally he has a genius IQ.  I wasn't being sacrastic there), you should look him up and see what he did and what he was doing before he became into the public's eye.    Find a video of him speaking and you'll see that he's not the best public speaker.

I would like to see you give several messages (yeah it is on the teleprompter and those words do move) to basically the whole world and let's see how you do.  I am not agruing here the GW Bush is a rocket sciencist or is a genius for that matter.  I am agruing the correlation that Veiridia is trying to say between public speaking skills and intelligence and how they go hand in hand. 

Reply #42 Top

Feel free to take a stroll down the DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3944814

These are people who hate other people over political ideology.
End of quote

Why bother linking to another site. There is plenty of that here in JU. To be fair there is plenty of it showing in just about every blog site that addresses political issues.

 

Reply #43 Top

the people's party-

Interesting points you make. Unfortunately, you've made statements that tie together a large number of non-related topics, any one of which we can (and have done so in the past ad infinitum) debate further.

Iraq is a complext topic and many different facets of that situation can be debated. My point there was going back to 2003 when Bush made his speech to the UN (and Colin Powell did his song and dance to the security council) in which we were all told Iraq had a sophisticated, extensive WMD program and was going to drop nukes and advanced chemical and biological agents on us with remote controlled drone aircraft capable of reaching intercontinental distances. That's what sold the war. Not humanitarian intervention (otherwise you'd have invaded Sudan and Rwanda years ago) Not dealing with Iran's ambitions. We were told that a maniacal dictator was planning to wipe us all out and had the means to do it. This turned out to be false. I happen to believe that the president knew this to be the case but wanted the intel fixed to support his bid for war. Other's here believe that he didn't know, which would be a pretty big screw up on the part of all the intel groups. So why then did he reward the head of the CIA (George Tenet) instead of calling him onto the proverbial carpet?

Furthermore, I see you don't have a blog attached to your handle. If you'd be so kind as to post some articles I'm very interested to see you expound your views further!

Reply #44 Top

These are people who hate other people over political ideology.
End of quote

No wonder they want to use our money!  They are morons when it comes to making their own!  Damn!  And this idiot is proud of his stupidity.

Where did I say this was 100 % ironclad fact? I believe it to be true
End of quote

Yes, but you stated it in the declaritive (as in a fact) without a supporting hint of subjective instead of objective admission.

Which, if you made an intel mistake of that magnitude you would think that heads at the CIA would have rolled,
End of quote

Yes, let's throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I can see why Tort lawyers are so liberal.  They beleive, apparently like all liberals, in the inerrancy of man.

Glad I dont work for a liberal.  I am just a poor schmuck that occassional makes mistakes.  I dont want to be executed for them.

Reply #45 Top

And then of course there's rendition. Sending someone to another country where you KNOW they will be unequivocally tortured the old fashioned way (electricity, pliars meet fingernails, random beatings) as happened to one of my countrymen when he was simply passing through the States on a connecting flight. Turned out he was completely innocent, oh well, tough luck for him that he spent a year in jail in Syria!
End of quote

Blame Clinton - he set up the system.

Reply #46 Top

This coming from someone who's told me to F -off (well actually you said "F- u") several times on one thread. Just for expressing my opinion in the name of debate.
End of quote

If you think any of the stuff in the link is happening here, you either cant read, dont want to read, or dont want to believe.

Lunacy - not just for idiots anymore.

Reply #47 Top

This coming from someone who's told me to F -off (well actually you said "F- u") several times on one thread. Just for expressing my opinion in the name of debate.

End of quote

Yeah. I'd like to see those statements.

And I would like to see what "opinion" it was that you "expressed".

 

Reply #48 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 32


Here's probably a good summation:
If you think someone else is dumb or inferior to you simply because they hold a different political philosophy from you, then you should probably re-evaluate.

End of Frogboy's quote

 

Pretty much sums up my view on the issues.  If I am having an argument with someone over something in general, it alot easier to convince me when the other party presents facts and then their line of reasoning that comes from those facts.  (This doesn't always happen with  my girlfriend, but she gets a big pass from me ^_^ )

Reply #49 Top

Quoting Leauki, reply 23




This coming from someone who's told me to F -off (well actually you said "F- u") several times on one thread. Just for expressing my opinion in the name of debate.





Yeah. I'd like to see those statements.

And I would like to see what "opinion" it was that you "expressed".

 
End of Leauki's quote

I think I remember the day.

I rarely use the F-word, so I can remember.

https://forums.joeuser.com/320338/page/2/#1831737

But you are telling a lie. It was not about an "opinion" of yours.

It was about an anti-Semitic lie you told.

You claimed that Israel's defence against Lebanon's attack "involved large scale airstrikes on civillian populations".

And that's an often-repeated lie. There were no "large scape airstrikes on civilian populations". In fact Israel had no interest in harming civilians (what for?) and specifically dropped leaflets telling people to move away from Hizbullah's positions.

You implied that it is perfectly OK for me to die for your belief that fighting back is wrong, that fighting terrorists is the same as shooting innocent civilians because of their faith or nationality, that killing human shields is as wrong as using human shields (despite the fact that using human shields is a war crime, but that never comes into play when Israel is involved).

I stand by what I said. I don't mind you holding any opinion you want. But if you tell an anti-Semitic lie, one of many that causes death and misery in the world because people like you don't care about the effects of their propagation of these lies, I will get angry.

Those rockets from Lebanon that were shot at civilian targets were shot at us BECAUSE people believe in the stupid lies you and others like you tell.

The F-word doesn't even begin to describe the disgust I feel for people like you.

So it occurs to me that perhaps the reason you keep noticing that people accuse of you of being a liar is because you are a liar?

I have disagreed with many here on JU, especially with right-wingers, on subjects like socialised healthcare, religion, Creationism, tax systems, all the pet peeves of American conservatives. But for some reason they argue with me but don't accuse me of being a liar.

Go figure.

So that is why I used the F-word. It had nothing to do with your "opinion".

Tell me that Israel overreacted (and tell me how Israel SHOULD have stopped the five-year rocket bombardment of the north instead). That's an opinion.

But tell me a blatant lie, as if taken straight from Hizbullah's propaganda television channel; or tell me that a civilian Jew is as valid a target as a non-Jewish terrorist (hence equating Jews with terrorists); or imply that I should be the guinea-pig for YOUR pacifism, and I will hold you in as little regard as, apparently, the others that keep telling you that you are a liar.

 

Reply #50 Top

Most of my thoughts come from ACTUALLY LIVING in the countries I talk about and also collaborating with people that have lived in the countries as well. 

Israel is one of the countries I have lived in.  I lived in the region for some time.  I have noticed most people from the States tend to have an opinion about a country just because of what they've seen on TV, heard, or been taught.  This is fine.  Again, you can gain facts through those mediums. First hand experiences are better/more desirable then second or third hand information.

The whole Lebanon war started because ALSO (the rockets were included) Lebanon came across the border and kidnapped several of Israeli soldiers (who they made out to seem to be a live still but Lebanese had killed the soldiers) during PEACE TIME (or being Israel as close as it can be to peace which isn't peace as we think in the States).  Most people think that Israel just went in and wanted to bully around someone and that's why the world stepped in and told them to stop.  The leaflet campaign that Leauki is talking really happened because I have a friend who translated the leaflets and MADE SURE THAT THEY SAID ACCURATELY 'TO LEAVE THE AREA IF YOU ARE NOT MILITARY'.  On top of that the President of Lebanon said "that he never imagined Israel to respond the way they did and if he had known he would have called off the operation."  I'm not sure how he expected them to react.

I know people accuse Israel of the situation in Palestine and building a wall.  Well, the wall and inspections weren't as intense until (I guess some people don't like the word terriorist so the ISLAMIC RADICALS) Islamic Radicals started to take ambulances (they actually had children in the ambulance that sincerely needed medical attention) a cross the border and were several times success of a suicide bombing once they got in.  One that comes to my immediate mind was the one on Ben Yehuda Street which once the ambulance was in Jerusalem they went to the crowdest restuarant being Sbarro (sp?). 

Lets just think if Canada started doing that to the United States and was very hostile to the U.S. I feel that a lot of people's opinions would just go out the window because its no longer make believe but reality.  The States would not stand for that type of behavior from Canada and why should Israel?