Returning Armada Solution

from Sins Forums

I have a proper solution for balancing the Vasari  Returning Armada  capability.

1. All ships that are to arrive via nodes arrive at the same node, together. The number of nodes, the level of Returning Armada research (extend the level gradation?), and the player`s current fleet cap. limit influence the general range of numbers of ships to arrive.

2. The armada is led (potentially... random chance) by a capital ship.

3. The Armada - any remnants of the Dark Fleet - are controlled by the A.I., allied to the player to which they have returned but under their own control.

4. Every Armada that returns is its own A.I. .

5. Any Returning Armadas do not count towards that player`s fleet cap. limit.

 

When the A.I. battlegroup acts, it is up to the player to capitalize upon whatever it does or wherever it goes, to attack the enemy. Since the battlegroups are not under the player`s direct control, what could be termed unfair abuse is mitigated: the player must move at the pace of the help, if the help is to be *of* help.

Dark Fleets move to attack the enemy.

Important but not imbalancing.

 

20,351 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
6. Tie the tech level of Dark Fleets to the level of Returning Armada research. Dark Fleet technology is therefore independent of player technical development (beyond Returning Armada level).
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I think they should leave it the way it is. RA is not invincible and getting it up and humming is very expensive and comes at the expense of military readiness. What happens if you get rushed while you're investing all of your credits and minerals in Imperial Labs, Phase Gates, and RA research?

If you nerf RA there will no longer be any reason to play Vasari at all, IMHO.
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Here is a redesign of RA....

A New type of Gate for RA. lets say its a larger Inter-Galatic Gate capable of stablising space for galactic travel which is what the dark fleet is doing. The smaller Phase gates are only capable of stablising for inter-system travel and they dont do RA. The Big Gates should not function as inter-system stabilisers either.

Atleast this way the player cant simply have the secondary advantage of a chokepoint defence on every planet unless he decides to make the smaller phase gates which does not produce RA. Its one of the accidental advantages that RA players have when they make RA , even though stabilising two planets is meant to be a big tactical decision in the game. It just shows the poor design of this games ability. RA players should have to make a tactical choice to have planets stabilised, rather then have it as an accidental consequence of Gate spamming for RA. Smaller gates subject to balance.


Also people should get it in their heads , that theres a difference between REDESIGN and NERF. REDESIGN is effectively subject to balance.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
@WarlokLord

I like this idea alot. Effectively RA is like having your own personal pirate army. Why spend 4k on bounty when you can have own come through a gate.

What I like about pirates is that they are gung-ho attackers, but this throws up the question , are you capable of taking advantage of the situation. Most nubs will just let the pirates attack whilst they watch. Good players will exploit , and use the pirate attack as a decoy to follow in with their own attack.

RA could be like this. An RA arrives and makes a bee-line for the enemy. Can you take advantage of it?

Subject to balance of course.

The Army that comes through could be Pirate size. Larger!. The Gates can be more expensive , but easier to attain in a game thorugh cheaper research etc.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
@WarlokLordI like this idea alot. Effectively RA is like having your own personal pirate army. Why spend 4k on bounty when you can have own come through a gate.What I like about pirates is that they are gung-ho attackers, but this throws up the question , are you capable of taking advantage of the situation. Most nubs will just let the pirates attack whilst they watch. Good players will exploit , and use the pirate attack as a decoy to follow in with their own attack.RA could be like this. An RA arrives and makes a bee-line for the enemy. Can you take advantage of it? Subject to balance of course.The Army that comes through could be Pirate size. Larger!. The Gates can be more expensive , but easier to attain in a game thorugh cheaper research etc.
End of quote


Thanks. I would certainly make the size of any armada variable (sometimes only a few remnants come through, sometimes many) as would be the frequency.

I also like the potential for a Returning Armada to be *less* useful... sometimes the A.I. helper would venture into an unwise place at an inopportune moment. Its a dice roll - its a gamble. A factor in a contest, not an absolute determiner.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
How about just giving the ability to the other races :) :D
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Personally, I can't get on board with tier 8 abilities that have a random chance of actually being useful (as opposed to simply handing your opponent a $!#%-ton of experience on a silver platter if the attack goes awry). I'm all for making some changes to this ability and a few other aspects of the Vasari, especially if people really feel that this ability is the 'only' reason to play Vasari, but I'd rather not turn it into a completely random element.

That's just me, though.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
But its not *completely* random - my solution is dependable enough to be of use. The additional opportunity is also an additional activity and welcome challenge for the Vasari player: to keep up with and take advantage of his Dark Fleet ally. And that would not be an entirely impossible thing to do - just follow the leader, or use him as a distraction.

Any kind of failed attack can simply provide your enemy with experience. I suggest therefore that that is not a reason to discount my design.

An additional A.I. (good size) fleet ally is not what I would call inconsequential even side-by-side to tier 8 research counterparts.

Besides, what if the Dark Fleet wins a combat and therefore survives? What if a second Dark Fleet arrives within 'X' time period to join the first (or even to otherwise operate elsewhere in space)? A Third? Fourth? Advantages and disadvantages are present, with potential in either direction based upon both variability/luck of the draw and player skill. Sounds like the kind of mechanic that will make me play.

(more than I already do...)
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
How about just giving the ability to the other races
End of quote


Helioforge,

You`re fired.

;)
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
Any kind of failed attack can simply provide your enemy with experience.
End of quote


Yes, but in a game between two people, there's a difference between a player making a mistake and the game randomly throwing free kills someone's way. I know I'd be a little annoyed if I spent all that time researching a tier 8 ability only to have it randomly do more harm than good.

This just sounds like more of a nuisance than a help to me. I wouldn't want my actions being determined by what the computer decides to do with its randomly assigned attacks. Hell, it's enough of a pain trying to make use of actual AI allies as is.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Any kind of failed attack can simply provide your enemy with experience.Yes, but in a game between two people, there's a difference between a player making a mistake and the game randomly throwing free kills someone's way. I know I'd be a little annoyed if I spent all that time researching a tier 8 ability only to have it randomly do more harm than good.This just sounds like more of a nuisance than a help to me. I wouldn't want my actions being determined by what the computer decides to do with its randomly assigned attacks. Hell, it's enough of a pain trying to make use of actual AI allies as is.
End of quote


Well this is why it might be a good idea to turn off RA at the gates. You dont have to have it on. When you want to do an attack , you have to use RA when the time is right.

If the enemy is using caps parked at heavy defences to feed expierence then this is just an example of how this idea , which is more in-tune with the design of the game offers COUNTERS to the ability , thus it shows the tactical promise of such ideas.

Something sadly the current RA lacks.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Can't you give AI controlled allies orders anyway? To attack and defend and such. Not the same as just owning the units outright, but they always seem pretty happy to go along with my plans when I use those buttons.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

I didn`t need reassurance that my idea would work (the entirety of Majesty provided that many moons ago), but go look at Demigod to see validation of my A.I. controlled concept... the armies in the game are completely automatic. And it works...

I hope the developers are seriously pondering this. Anyhoo, blah...

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Actually,

Now that I think about it, Sins itself validates my idea - we *already* deal with autonomous factions interfering with our play: pirates. The game works pretty well despite them... the universe still turns.

Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top

Now that I think about it, Sins itself validates my idea - we *already* deal with autonomous factions interfering with our play: pirates.
End of quote

I count it as a major difference that pirates require no cost from the player to do what they do and even if the player chooses to pay a cost, it's clear up-front that it's a gamble (given the relative weakness of pirates beyond anything but the first wave, it's usually a losing bet). 

That an AI can do stuff isn't under dispute.  What concerns me is whether or not I'd be willing to pay top dollar for it to do that stuff rather than putting those resources towards something a bit more reliable.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Sakhari, reply 15

Now that I think about it, Sins itself validates my idea - we *already* deal with autonomous factions interfering with our play: pirates.


I count it as a major difference that pirates require no cost from the player to do what they do and even if the player chooses to pay a cost, it's clear up-front that it's a gamble (given the relative weakness of pirates beyond anything but the first wave, it's usually a losing bet). 

That an AI can do stuff isn't under dispute.  What concerns me is whether or not I'd be willing to pay top dollar for it to do that stuff rather than putting those resources towards something a bit more reliable.
End of Sakhari's quote

To counter your argument, also consider that your own Dark Armadas will *never* attack you or your allies... Pirates don`t operate that way.

Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top

The gamble isn't so much whether the pirates attack your allies or enemies.  It's in whether or not they actually do anything worthwhile for the investment that you made.  More often than not, the pirates simply go to their deaths offering free experience for any local caps on a platter.

And that comeback still doesn't address the reliability concern.  Again, I know that an AI is capable of doing things on its own and that those things can be potentially beneficial.   What I don't like about this idea is that it takes control away from the player (again, for a pretty massive cost) and puts it towards the 'chance' that something useful will actually come of it.

Plus, I imagine it's much more complicated a fix than simply scaling back the ability (if, indeed, it even needs to be scaled back).

Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top

So you have RA work like the superweapons.  You activate RA and pick a target system.  The allied fleet arrives, gets it's marching orders, and ONCE it gets to the target system starts attacking.  If you can not find a way to use that to your advantage, you kind of suck.  It allows you, if you use it properly, to field a larger fleet than your opponent.  Yes you have to pay for them and no, you won't get direct control, but if YOUR fleet is attacking, the extra fodder helps things a lot.  Always remember the difference between fighting a radiance, some LRM frigates or fighting a radiance, some LRM frigates ... and 20 heavy cruisers.  If you don't support your returning armada, they will be slaughtered.  If you do support them, they will be of significant aid in making difficult pushes, and as they do not cost you cap, they are a way to have lower max cap and build up resources.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting FelixDrake, reply 18
So you have RA work like the superweapons.  You activate RA and pick a target system.  The allied fleet arrives, gets it's marching orders, and ONCE it gets to the target system starts attacking.  If you can not find a way to use that to your advantage, you kind of suck.  It allows you, if you use it properly, to field a larger fleet than your opponent.  Yes you have to pay for them and no, you won't get direct control, but if YOUR fleet is attacking, the extra fodder helps things a lot.  Always remember the difference between fighting a radiance, some LRM frigates or fighting a radiance, some LRM frigates ... and 20 heavy cruisers.  If you don't support your returning armada, they will be slaughtered.  If you do support them, they will be of significant aid in making difficult pushes, and as they do not cost you cap, they are a way to have lower max cap and build up resources.
End of FelixDrake's quote

An interesting idea. Perhaps the number of Phase Nodes you have would incline the spawning force to be larger too. Anyway, yes, an entertaining idea.

I would ask what happens after the orders are executed, what the fleet does afterwards, and what happens when an existing Dark Fleet is supplemented by another that returns through your Phase Nodes (if such would occur at all).

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting WarlokLord, reply 19

Quoting FelixDrake, reply 18So you have RA work like the superweapons.  You activate RA and pick a target system.  The allied fleet arrives, gets it's marching orders, and ONCE it gets to the target system starts attacking.  If you can not find a way to use that to your advantage, you kind of suck.  It allows you, if you use it properly, to field a larger fleet than your opponent.  Yes you have to pay for them and no, you won't get direct control, but if YOUR fleet is attacking, the extra fodder helps things a lot.  Always remember the difference between fighting a radiance, some LRM frigates or fighting a radiance, some LRM frigates ... and 20 heavy cruisers.  If you don't support your returning armada, they will be slaughtered.  If you do support them, they will be of significant aid in making difficult pushes, and as they do not cost you cap, they are a way to have lower max cap and build up resources.

An interesting idea. Perhaps the number of Phase Nodes you have would incline the spawning force to be larger too. Anyway, yes, an entertaining idea.

I would ask what happens after the orders are executed, what the fleet does afterwards, and what happens when an existing Dark Fleet is supplemented by another that returns through your Phase Nodes (if such would occur at all).
End of WarlokLord's quote

Basically, you activate RA and choose a target system. A Dark Fleet reinforcement wave worth 'X' fleet supply points arrives through a Phase Stabilizer and flies to the target system. If planned correctly, your own fleet should go in with them. If you lose the battle, all the Dark Fleet ships are dead(no retreat option for them).

If you win, the Dark Fleet reinforcements would just go back to the system they spawned in and sit around, fighting any hostile ships that enter. The fleet supply of the remaining Dark Fleet ships is 'Y'. When you next activate RA, a reinforcement wave worth X - Y fleet points enters and joins with the old RA ships, and then it's a repeat of the above. The value of 'X' depends on the number of Phase Stabilizers you have.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

I don't like the idea of AI controled RA. 

There is a good discussion in the beta forum about this.  One idea there I'm fond of is that each gate would have, say, 20 ship points which it could spend on ships (probably have to also take these points from the players fleet points to prevent the infinitely sized army), the ships stay forever, and are replaced for free after dieing, after an appropriate waiting period.

 

Consider this:  Vasari VS TEC.

Vasari get lvl 8 RA, and tec get that economic bonus that give them 10% of all resources spend everywhere by everyone.  I bet tec can keep up with RA preaty well.  You may have free ships forever, but tec now has free money forever, or maybe a plannet killing big a** gun.

What happens though, is Vasari focus on advancing in tech, and TEC just lets them, then all of a sudden TEC compalins, OH NOES, RA is too powerful.  It should be powerful considering what I just spent on it.  Now if TEC would take an military advantage and attack before RA is up and running, they could stop it easy enough.  Or, if TEC would focus on some level 8 techs themselves, they would be much better off.

 

Problem is people think they should be able to withstand lvl 8 techs with a bunch of LRMs.