I am tired of hearing that illum are "imba" (imbalanced)

from Sins Forums
I am getting tired of beating players online with a well managed, upgraded, and microed illuminator/guardian/mothership fleet only to hear the tired excuse "illum are SOOO imba."

Let's forget for a second that illums:

-Require three research labs


-Are by far the most expensive long range frig to research ($800/100m/175c vs 400/0/25 for assailant and 600/50/100 for lrm researches)


-Are the second most expensive long range frig to purchase ($380/60m/55c vs 400/65/45 for assailant and 275/45/25 for lrm)


-Have the longest build time (in fast speeds the build times for illum/assailant/lrm are 24sec/23sec/21sec respectively)


-Have the shortest range of all the long range frigs (5520 vs 9800 for the assailant and 7820 for the lrm).


Let's also forget that advent have the WORST econ.


Let's FORGET all of that for a second.  

Let's instead consider that in addition to building a healthy number of illums fast (20-30), I also work hard to get at least the first 3-4 levels of shield and hull upgrades, the first 1-2 levels of weapons upgrades, the ability upgrade (deceptive illusion), AS WELL AS supporting the illum fleet with guardians and the progenitor (w/ malice + shield regen abilities).

Let's also emphasize that such a fleet, as powerful as it has the potential to be, will get utterly WIPED if not microed well.  By default illums like to assume a stand-offish position which allows their front beams to fire only.  Effective microing of illums is ESSENTIAL to ensure that

a) they are positioned for maximum arc damage (ie all three beams are firing),
b) you capitalize on the illum's ability to fire while turning, ie constantly reposition the illums to force the enemy units to turn, while the illums keep blasting away.

In addition to microing the illums, it is also imperative that the mothership and guardians are microed well so their abilities are used with maximum effect.


If, despite the prohibitive prices involved, with worse econ, I am able t build an equal sized or larger fleet of illums then a vasari/tec player can build their own long range frigs/HC, and if I've been able to upgrade my illums several levels, and if I've also been able to build support ships, and if, finally, I am then able to wield such a mighty fleet well, with effective micro, I THINK I EARNED TEH WIN.

The only thing that is "imba," perhaps, is my own skill vs that of my opponent :p

strategy
7,293 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
b) you capitalize on the illum's ability to fire while turning, ie constantly reposition the illums to force the enemy units to turn, while the illums keep blasting away.
End of quote


This does seem like a problem to me. If your ships can fire while turning and his can't, and your ships are constnatly moving (so his have to keep turning in order to face the right way and fire), what is he supposed to do about it?

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
My fleet of a lvl 1 Kol, a lvl 4 Akkan, 10 LRMS, 4 flaks and 4 cobalts waswiped out by a mothership and 10 illums.

I'm still pissed- I only managed to kill a single illum and only my Akkan escaped. I forced his mothership to flee, but it didn't matter. I would have lost my akkan trying to take it out.

In all seriousness though, can someone tell me how to properly counter illums? (and don't tell me, "fight him before he can research illums." sometimes that just isn't possible.)
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
My fleet of a lvl 1 Kol, a lvl 4 Akkan, 10 LRMS, 4 flaks and 4 cobalts waswiped out by a mothership and 10 illums.I'm still pissed- I only managed to kill a single illum and only my Akkan escaped. I forced his mothership to flee, but it didn't matter. I would have lost my akkan trying to take it out.In all seriousness though, can someone tell me how to properly counter illums? (and don't tell me, "fight him before he can research illums." sometimes that just isn't possible.)
End of quote


Sigh.

Hashikos, LRMs, Kol.

Don't target the mothership first in the early game. This is why you didn't kill any of his ships.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Don't target the mothership first in the early game
End of quote


In general, in the early game, it's a bad idea to FF on caps. Most of the opponents firepower is in his more fragile frigates and cruisers. Capital ships don't become truly dangerous until they get to higher levels that they won't have early game.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I actually forgot i had two hashikos, but i guess the kol was a bad idea. should have had more lrms...

thanks for the advice
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Probably just me but all I got from this thread is that Yinhes skilled  :HOT: 

Are you agreeing that the illum is imba ,but people should shutup about it cos you just got a headache? or are you saying it isnt imba , and infact people should shutup because they are wrong.

... :d 
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
illums are not imba at all. Besides being good offensive weapons at any point in a game, they can be paired up with a group of destras. In a skirmish game I used 10 illums and 10 destras to kill a leval 10 dunov.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
The problem with illuminators is that if Advent can get around to building even two thirds of the lrms a TEC player has, the TEC guy will get cut to shreds. The only truly effective counter is heavy cruisers, which, even with TEC economy, are hard to get as early as illuminators, especially on smaller maps.

By the time a TEC player even starts making kodiaks, an Advent player can have more than 40 illuminators which will tear apart the few kodiaks being sent to battle.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
The problem with illuminators is that if Advent can get around to building even two thirds of the lrms a TEC player has, the TEC guy will get cut to shreds. The only truly effective counter is heavy cruisers, which, even with TEC economy, are hard to get as early as illuminators, especially on smaller maps. By the time a TEC player even starts making kodiaks, an Advent player can have more than 40 illuminators which will tear apart the few kodiaks being sent to battle.
End of quote


2/3 of illuminators is the same fleet point cost. 2*6=12 3*4=12
Add that illums are i think twice more expensive than LRMs, and i don't see a problem.

btw 2 hashikos is not close to enough. Maybe 5-7 at least
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Probably just me but all I got from this thread is that Yinhes skilled   Are you agreeing that the illum is imba ,but people should shutup about it cos you just got a headache? or are you saying it isnt imba , and infact people should shutup because they are wrong....  
End of quote


I do not think they are imba. The best counter (tho it is RARELY used) is... drum roll please... FLAK.

Yes. Flak. The counter in 1.03 for all long range frigs is still the best counter in 1.04, and it is especially nice vs illum.

Now when I first started playing 1.04 I thought someone who was still using flak vs long range frigs had simply missed the memo. But I was wrong.

Now it is not as good a counter as it was in 1.03, but it is still very effective. Why? Because flak, like illum, have multi-arc damage, so Tridus's concern about not being able to fire while turning is moot.

In addition, they have a higher dps then illums, a higher rate of fire, and more hull/shields. Also, due to their respective armor types, both illum and flak do 75% of their damage to one another... so they are on equal ground in that regard. Flak cost roughly the same as illum and take up less supply, however they do have a longer build time.

If you have an equal sized or (preferably) larger fleet of flak, you will more than hold your own against (and probably beat) any "sup4r 3lite illum!inat0r d3ath f1eeT"
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Illums are fine.

I've never had any problems dealing with the standard Illum/mothership strategy. It's both obvious to do and counter.

The bigger issue, as I've already stated, is the Guardians. Repulsion, properly abused, can permanently prevent hyperspace jumping, as well as split opposing fleets in two. This is both caps and frigs people.

Consequently, an abusive Advent player can simply trap any number of ships and kill them at will. This includes your level 6 capital ships. Illuminators are best used as anti-light frigate and in open field fights with lrms. In large numbers with Malice, they also butcher flaks (the flak army melts in a few seconds).

While there are many keys to stopping Advent from running you over, I will say that massing flaks is not the way to go, while they are a temporary solution.