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A case for returning armada

A case for returning armada

Devs/Players

I have the read the forums here rather often, but never bothered to post. However, I think something needs to be said about returning armada; the nerf was unnecessary. What is truly mind-boggling is the fact that people still believe it should be toned down. The simple fact of the matter is that each race needs to be strong in different phases of the game. I'm sure that while we can all agree on the well-defined strengths of the TEC and Advent, a case can be made for where the Vasari fit into this Sins picture. Their ships are very expensive (skirmishers make early-mid game fighting very difficult) and the economy is pretty bad. These factors do not mix well.

Where am I going with this? The Vasari should be, imho, the strongest late game faction via RA. It was near impossible, playing against a semi-intelligent player before 1.04 to fend off the TEC early game. If you managed to survive a little longer, the Advent would crush the Vasari with its very powerful special abilities. However, if you played the early-mid game perfectly, and did just enough to rush your RA tech, you could win. Note that this was VERY difficult and had no margin for error.

Now, after the patch, the Illums crush the Vasari aswell. Where does the Vasari fit in? While RA is still powerful, it is only powerful when you have a large number of gates, which means it takes ever longer to become a force than it did before. Now a player requires more gates for RA to be effective, further negatively impacting the player with the Vasari's weak economy. Do not forget that a player cannot choose what units come through the gates, so in the event that a player is faced with a specific ship en masse (e.g. illums), countering them effectively on a ship-to-ship basis is very difficult. This was offset by the number of ships you would get for free, and the rate at which they became available. Now such a balance does not exist.

The other, less obvious issue is that countering RA is very, very easy. I am reluctant to give away these strategies (despite how simplistic and obvious they are...), but it is very easy to rush each gate with a large fleet, and destroy the tech labs. Since the Vasari economy is poor, and the ships now irreplacable, the result of the game becomes a formality. I have heard arguements that RA is too powerful, and that it requires no skill. This is in direct contradiction with the reality of the situation; RA is a fragile strategy, easily countered (destroy gates), easily prevented (early game), and requires, by far, the most skill to execute (you need to fool each of your opponents into not attacking you for 15-30 minutes).

Please return RA to its former glory, where a skilled and cunning player was rewarded for their risky and perfectly executed strategy. Or, at the very least, do not* nerf it again.
19,234 views 50 replies
Reply #26 Top
You could replace RA with a tech that includes all of the following:

Give all ships a 10% increase in sheilds, hull, antimater.
Increase all ships' attack damage by 5%.
Increase all ships' regeneration/repair rates for sheilds, hull, and antimatter by 10%.
Make all ships 10% cheaper.

Or something like that. Right now it's almost impossible to defeate someone with RA on a large, multi-system map.
Reply #27 Top
You could replace RA with a tech that includes all of the following:

Give all ships a 10% increase in sheilds, hull, antimater.
Increase all ships' attack damage by 5%.
Increase all ships' regeneration/repair rates for sheilds, hull, and antimatter by 10%.
Make all ships 10% cheaper.

Or something like that. Right now it's almost impossible to defeate someone with RA on a large, multi-system map.
Reply #28 Top
You could replace RA with a tech that includes all of the following:

Give all ships a 10% increase in sheilds, hull, antimater.
Increase all ships' attack damage by 5%.
Increase all ships' regeneration/repair rates for sheilds, hull, and antimatter by 10%.
Make all ships 10% cheaper.

Or something like that. Right now it's almost impossible to defeate someone with RA on a large, multi-system map.
Reply #29 Top
You could replace RA with a tech that includes all of the following:

Give all ships a 10% increase in sheilds, hull, antimater.
Increase all ships' attack damage by 5%.
Increase all ships' regeneration/repair rates for sheilds, hull, and antimatter by 10%.
Make all ships 10% cheaper.

Or something like that. Right now it's almost impossible to defeate someone with RA on a large, multi-system map.
Reply #30 Top
Hey, sorry about that. I really didn't mean to post that 5 times. I am not trying to spam this thread.


(Man, I hate these crappy forums!!!!) - no offense to Stardock/Ironclad

Reply #31 Top
Wow five time, that must be a record!

But what would you call it, and could it also replace the Kostura Cannon, and just have other upgrade, that stacks on top of this one.

This fleet bounes, would give more of an reason, to build fleets, other then, to not use hot keys.
Reply #32 Top
Vanechka:
My main issue with Returning Armada is that it oversimplifies the game once it's up and running. The effort and skill required to counter Returning Armada post hoc, is far greater than the effort and skill required to manage it. I've often been frustrated by the fact that I had to spend a relatively large amount of time killing a lesser skilled player, simply because he had Returning Armada up and running. It's not much better to feel forced to attack the Vasari player first (if it's even possible - sometimes the circumstances doesn't allow it) just to avoid the time consuming process of fighting Returning Armada.
End of quote

Now here I'll definitely agree with you. But in this whole thread it's about all I'll agree with.
I won't say it's too powerful (it is if you get it in 20 or 30 minutes, sure.) but it does oversimplify the game.

Tec's eco can match RA just fine, and get to build whatever tec wants instead of what RA gives, but that ECO'ing imo takes a lot more skill. You have to spread out to get a good far trade route, you need both mil AND civ, and so on.
With RA it's simply building labs, then building phase stabs, then ships pop out.

I would like RA a lot more if it was tied to your income. You'd get less earlier on where your combined income (cred+metal+crystal) is less than say 20sec, but if it was more than 50/sec you'd get more than ra currently does, or something like that. Or it change the type of units you get, I don't know.
Reply #33 Top
It's not that RA is super powerful.

It's just that Improved Allegiance, Mass Trancedence, and Insurgency are extremely UNpowerful. You can't counter RA effectively with culture, Culture cannons, Nova Guns, mass capital ships or that sort of thing. Everything in the late game arsenal is so overshadowed by RA it's not even funny. The only thing that comes close (And to be fair, reasonably so) is Pervasive Economy, which probably won't trigger often from the Vasari player since his actual spending is cut a great deal. However, Pervasive economy still requires a large number of ship research to actually become effective, Where as Returning Armada does not.

Not to mention that phase gates serve a ridiculously awesome purpose as well.
Reply #34 Top
I do not think the problem lies within the automatism. Making it non automatic would simply elevate the need for micro - and to be honest - make the game cubersome to use. The shining fact about SoasE is its extremely streamlined UI covering a pretty deep game so well that you easily mistake it for something much more simple at first glance.

I would shift the structure itself from tactical to logistics (as i mistakenly assumed).

The problem is, as being mentioned, the fleet cap eating up income. The larger the cap is, the less resources you get - regardless of the actual SIZE of the fleet.

Its a problem for all other players rebuilding their fleet, except FREE FLEETS from phase stabilizers. You do not have to tackle with that.

Additionally you can scuttle free ships - for a load oaf income to spend it at your bidding - let say technology.

Also the production capabilities are no longer restrained to logisic shipyards, they are added by tactical PS, wich doubles production capabilities (roughly).

Moving them to logistics would eat capability from shipyards, leaving them with a decent eco boost wich is suitable for a late game tech up the tree.

But it should not result in DOUBLED production capabilities with one half being used WITHOUT resources, especially considering other empires will be stuck with one half.
Reply #35 Top
Wow five time, that must be a record!But what would you call it, and could it also replace the Kostura Cannon, and just have other upgrade, that stacks on top of this one.This fleet bounes, would give more of an reason, to build fleets, other then, to not use hot keys.
End of quote


Thanks.

Possible Name: Zero-Point Energy Siphoning

Maybe the Kostura Cannon could turn into a tech that would double the affect of the affore stated tech.

This (above stated plan) would make it more 'balanced' for the other races and actually make the Vasari player have to work at least a little bit for his ships.

Also, I wouldn't want it tied to building fleet (cause I ponly use hotkeys for that), just every ship you build.
Reply #36 Top
I think that it should be more of a fleet name, Anubis208. \

Here is what I have been thinking for names:

Death fleet
Dark Flotilla
and the like.

I also like the ideal, of replacing the Kostura Cannon, with a double effect to the fleet.

Do you think that we also need different types of fleets, like there were different admirals in Conquest Frontier wars.
Reply #37 Top
I guess this is one of those debates that will never end, I've seen another longer thread on this, but I'll chime in nonetheless.

The Kotsura Cannon is not worthless. It says it disables and damages buildings. That's not all. Send your fleet to an opponents planet and then shoot it with a kotsura. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, is disabled for 30 seconds. Your opponent's fleet cannot move for approximately 30, maybe it's 45, i never bothered to count. It's ironic that the best counter to RA is also in the Vasari arsenal.

Now, people say RA is difficult to counter once the opponent has it. That may be true, but if their fleet is going to be huge, they need precious time. By that time, there's two options for every person, including advent, tec, and non-RA vasari.

The advent is going to rely on abilities. The guardian with repulsion, malice, cleansing brilliance, and not to mention the halycon's firing bonus and vertigo. Every advent ability together will crush an RA fleet everytime. Slowly but surely you should be moving to get to his phase gates.

TEC relies on that ECO and armor. Against an RA, you want HC's, LRM's, Hoshiko's, and flaks, in that order. The opponent will have a similar mix without support cruisers. What makes a TEC win is that you have spent the money and time to upgrade your units as well. You should be beating an equal sized opponents fleet because your units are stronger. A little messier, but hey, it works.

A non-RA vasari likely doesn't have too much eco. Maybe to the third tier, possibly the 4th but don't go trade ports EVER with Vasari people. The only way you go trade ports with Vasari is if you have 4 or 5 desert worlds and that's it.

Anyway, the non-RA should have a mix of Subverters, Enforcers, and the Assailants (support cruiser, hc's, lrms). These units should be upgraded, but a non-RA should have build enough resource extractors with the mines so that they have a massive resource income. Slowly but surely, this person can save up for a Kotsura cannon. By the time this person has a Kotsura cannon, the RA person will likely start to hit you. Find a planet that isn't yours to shoot at and you can disable his fleet there. So lethal....especially if you have an ally to set the trap with you.



Reply #38 Top
Oops, when I said every race has two options, I didn't explain the second for each, nd this one's actually very simple. Rush him. An RA Vasari has no military in the beginning besides a few assailants.
Reply #39 Top
As earlier stated "kill him before he gets it out" makes it in no way balanced. Also, you might be ablet to beat the first RA armada. But there will be casaulties. Casaulties you have to pay to replace and produce from logistics. The Vasari does not only that, he also includes tactical and those ships come all in free. Its actually as you would be fighting TWO people. Thats in no way okay, sorry. Gettign a second player to join in probably does the trick, but a single race being the equal worth of TWO empires is exactly what we call "unbalanced". There has to be a change.
Reply #40 Top
I haven't played it yet - just bought the game, and it's downloading :-) - but I can see how scuttling ships may be a problem. Why not make a quick fix so you simply can't scuttle the ships?
Reply #41 Top
NilsJeppe: Yes, that is exactly what I thought would be the best solution. The problem now is that the Vasari gets a gigantic fleet and an excellent economy with RA, because he gets free units and can scuttle them to get tax free income. This is also what I don't understand when people say the RA-Vasari doesen't have support units or unit upgrades. Why not?

Anyway, remove the scuttle button, and the Vasari won't be able to win the game without a proper economy anymore.
Reply #42 Top

i play Vasari, and i feel bad

going RA is quite suicidal unless :
-u play 1vs1 vs an easy AI computer
-u play Very large map in FFA mode

otherwise, u dead before your first "free" ship arrive


so i only play ffa...
and i do nothing except playing low profile while teching civics...
i can't rush, i've to pray to avoid very agressive neighbour
Reply #43 Top

It seems to me that RA is all that really makes playing Vasari worthwhile because their ships are expensive and consume lots of fleet supply points. Am I wrong? It's really a builder race, IMHO.
Reply #44 Top
i play Vasari, and i feel bad

going RA is quite suicidal unless :
-u play 1vs1 vs an easy AI computer
-u play Very large map in FFA mode

otherwise, u dead before your first "free" ship arrive


so i only play ffa...
and i do nothing except playing low profile while teching civics...
i can't rush, i've to pray to avoid very agressive neighbour
End of quote


Hmmmmm... Last night in a 2v2 I got RA in 18 minutes and had 6 gates + lvl 2 RA at the 25 minute mark. Yeah, that was certainly suicidal.
Reply #45 Top
But, due to lack of marker design, with RA, you still need to spend alot of brain time scanning all your planets to "sweep up" your RA booty and put them somewhere useful rather then let them have a beer party doing nothing
Reply #46 Top
But, due to lack of marker design, with RA, you still need to spend alot of brain time scanning all your planets to "sweep up" your RA booty and put them somewhere useful rather then let them have a beer party doing nothing
End of quote


That is true, but the amount of time, effort and intelligence needed to do this just doesn't compare at all with the effort that goes into managing a non-RA empire, which is far, far more demanding. And that's the biggest issue I have with RA, it oversimplifies the game.
Reply #47 Top
I was playing a game once where I had 3 times as many planets, had a much larger income, my trees were fully upgraded, had a huge fleet. And I got beat from RA without even being able to put up a fight.

I am not going to play this game until they fix this, such a stupid concept like RA sometimes make me wonder whether or not the developers lack any kind of intelligence. Once a Vassari player puts it up (mind you its not that hard, all it takes is a good allie in teams, or just to sit and camp in FFA) , he is unstoppable, period. Sure you can put up a fight, but he can easily replace his losses and you can't keep up with it.

Using the fleet capacity argument does not hold, since there is no replacement costs. Actually the fleet capacity argument goes in favor of vassari, because then the other player has to level it all the way and still somehow keep up a sizable force against his free ships.

On top of that, it completely ruins FFA games where instead of other players fighting over resources, they will be forced to take out the Vassari just because of RA. It totally shifts the focus of a game and even ruins the idea of wanting to fight a late game battles against a Vassari, since all other the other factions options are to rush.

You cannot make a faction thats only destroyable early game and expect it to be balanced.

And for those of you who claim you have beat RA, please explain using some logical reasoning as opposed to just bragging because I don't believe you.

How do fix it? Boost all Vassari ships, make them worth the money. Do not cancel RA, just give it a huge nerf. Increase the portal and RA cool down to 10 minutes, and make it so that it only spawns 2 free ship, and ONLY frigates. somehow make it worth the money, but do not make it the critical part of the vassari winning strategy.
Reply #48 Top
i play Vasari, and i feel badgoing RA is quite suicidal unless :-u play 1vs1 vs an easy AI computer-u play Very large map in FFA modeotherwise, u dead before your first "free" ship arriveso i only play ffa...and i do nothing except playing low profile while teching civics...i can't rush, i've to pray to avoid very agressive neighbourHmmmmm... Last night in a 2v2 I got RA in 18 minutes and had 6 gates + lvl 2 RA at the 25 minute mark. Yeah, that was certainly suicidal.
End of quote


I can see that, but it still seems rather fast. Was your teammate feeding you credits and resources? (Clan X likes to do this to help its Vasari players get RA faster.)
Reply #49 Top
But, due to lack of marker design, with RA, you still need to spend alot of brain time scanning all your planets to "sweep up" your RA booty and put them somewhere useful rather then let them have a beer party doing nothing
End of quote


Yeah, I wish it were possible to order newly-arrived RA ships to go to go to a certain location.

Reply #50 Top
I was playing a game once where I had 3 times as many planets, had a much larger income, my trees were fully upgraded, had a huge fleet. And I got beat from RA without even being able to put up a fight.
End of quote


What race were you? if your were TEC, that makes SOME sense, if your advent, no offense, but your skills are waaaay down there if he beat you at that point, because Advent fleets maxed out and utilized to their full potential, anihilate RA, unless the vasari uses a Kosture Cannon round during that large battle, that could tip it in his favor. (I'd know, Thats how I do it whenever facing such advent fleets, only real way to win against those things, FAAAR to many abilities and ships moving while firing and whatnot.)