HuntingX's Build Orders Set #3: Vasari

from Sins Forums
    Vasari is my primary race (after I decided to learn it, immediately following my original post about game balance, oh so long ago).

As such, my builds are the most matured, and most efficient of my posts.  I have never lost a 1v1 with Vasari (or any race), although I had one drawn out games that were left unfinished (draw).

You would think that I would have the most specific builds for Vasari.  You would be mistaken.  Vasari builds are more map dependent than any other, so instead of a flat build path as I've done in the past, I will go over the THEORY AND EXECUTION of the Vasari.

THEORY:
Vasari have excellent map control with Navigators.  Against non-Vasari, you will take every neutral extractor.  Against another Vasari, you will fight viciously over every neutral extractor.  This is how they are played.

The following Vasari units are terrific (in order of use):
1. Assailant
2. Subverter
3. Enforcer

The following Vasari units are counter units:
1. Sentinel
2. Skirmisher (to counter sentinels)

The following capital ships are useful in ORDER of usefulness:
1. Devastator Battleship (Mana burn + attack speed)
2. Marauder Battlecruiser (Free fighter squad at start + nice spells)
3. Dreadnaught (phase missle swarm + assault specialization)
4-5: other two.  Carrier sucks.  Why?  Repair hull is crap.  You will repair the hull of the ONE ship they're focusing.  Everything else doesn't benefit at all.  Compared to restore shields, it's an order of magnitude worse.

Basic MICRO tips:

Why are assailants so good?  Phase missiles pierce shield mitigation.  With focus fire, you can easily increase dps by more than 60-70% once you fully upgrade the pierce attribute.  With subverters, that dps increase is over 120%.

Micro assailants on weak units (light frigs) first for fast kills, then follow up on anything else you want.  Often in assailant wars, both sides will focus the capital ship.  This is a good strategy, but as it is with everything else, matchup dependent.  Do NOT focus fire kol (phase missle shield), Radiance, or Marauder (since it can phase itself out).  The NOTS are in order of importance.  Basically, NEVER focus fire a kol unless you're sure you can kill it.  It takes almost no damage from your missiles.

Do NOT focus fire flaks.  If they flak, you stop production of assailants, use existing assailants to kill light frigs + caps + buildings (IN THAT ORDER), and counter flak with skirms.  If they go carriers, you must go sentinels (obviously).

There is one more KEY to good Vasari play:
Holding off on upgrading your supply until you HAVE to.  Often, I will upgrade my phase missiles to tier 4 before I pop up simply because my opponent isn't being aggressive.  Assailants do not take long to build, especially if you build more than 1 frig fac (mid game, I have 3-4).

Finally, I will not be posting my famous RA rush here.  The skill is imbalanced, do not use it as a crutch.  Learn the game the right way.

EXECUTION:
The ALMOST ALWAYS techniques (EVERYTHING is map/strategy dependent):
Scuttle cap shipyard (why... not?)

Never start with skirmishers, they are overpriced and bad.  Start with assailants, and watch your opponent's builds.

NEVER go trade ports (unless you have a damn good reason, probably cuz opponents are scrubs).  Vasari trade port tech is tier 4, basically useless.

Start with devastator.  As you improve in the game, move on to the other caps.  The marauder is the hardest to use.

Here's a SAMPLE build order for 1v1/2v2 small map.  Remember, it's only a SUGGESTION.  It differs based on how much teching you can "get away" with before you upgrade pop as well as starting positions and neutral extractors.  Race matchup also plays a huge role.

This would be a medium map 1v1:

1.  Buy 2 units of crystal
2.  Upgrade home planet
3.  1 Worker on Cap ship, 1 worker on crystal
4.  Build 3-4 Navigators, scout and take neutrals
5.  Start Kortul when cap ship fac finishes
6.  Start 2 metal extractors
7.  Build colony ship
8.  Take nearby asteroid (all maps have 1 nearby asteroid)
9.  While taking asteroid, scuttle capital ship factory
10. Build military lab
11. Finish the asteroid, colonize it, upgrade so you don't bleed cash
12. Mine all asteroids
13. Start assailant production  (When assailants max your pop, and this doesn't take long, upgrade phase missiles twice, it's cheap and useful)
14. Asteroid #2 should be cleared and ready for taking (there's almost always a second asteroid, if not, find a lightly defended terran or desert)
15. Take asteroid 2, build it up as before
16. Now you have to make a choice.  You can add 2 more military labs (maybe even FOUR more), and continue research at 0 upkeep, or you can pop up and move out with your fleet.
17. You have 3 colonies, you can decide whether to take more or contest neutral extractors (good opponents will fight you over neutrals at this stage)
18. Pop up, and take a colony somewhere near the opponent
19. Build 3-4 Frigate factories, keeping unit composition to counter their fleet.  A level 6 kortul is also devastating with nanites.
20. Build subverters for shield mitigation decrease, enforcers to tank/dps if needed
21. Pressure with your mid game shield pierce army.  Eventually your opponent will fold.

strategy
15,517 views 27 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
I think holding off upgrading supply till you really need to is a general thing for most races and not only vasari, *if the opponent is not being aggressive.

I suggest trying the whale a few times, I also used to use the devastator as the first cap, but I prefer the whale now.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I do applaude one thing, at least you use the Kortul :)
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
It's important for all races, but it's most important for Vasari, because phase missile tech is the most significant (dps wise) tech in the game. Subverters are also one of the best support cruiser in the game (in my opinion), and Enforcers, although expensive, are the strongest heavy cruisers in the game.

The space whale has 2 useful skills, but neither is THAT useful in fleet fights straight up (its colonize is terrible compared to the Mothership - cost ability). It's ultimate is the best spell in the game for planet destruction, but it's again, useless in fleet fights. It also moves slower than the other caps, and dies the easiest. I've tried it a lot, and have had bad experiences every time.

Tec don't really benefit from increased technology (I never go past 2 military), and Advent is so weak early that they really never have the chance to tech up (or if they try, they get killed). This is why I emphasize the teching portion of my Vasari build.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
I think building colony ship after 1 scout is best, to get the am going, but eh I could be wrong there.

I should note that as vasari you should upgrade hull FIRST and phase missiles second.

hull upgrade gives 13% bonus at level 2(but less repair than the other races get. But the repair rate means very little early game), and you should upgrade this as soo as you have a few assailants.
5/10% phase missile doesn't do much with the first pop cap.

Also with the Marauder if someone wants to kill it, you have a gigantic advantage.
Liek in that game with Jynx.. He kept trying to kill my cap which just made me have his LRMS go in circles and essentially put a 90% damage reduction debuff on them.

If you put your fleet on one side and move the Antorak Marauder behind the enemies LRMS, the lrms have to turn to fire, and lrms turn EXTREMELY slow.
Always remember to press q for phase out, as that's the hotkey, clicking is to slow for how fast you have to micro it.
Once the missiles come at, phase out before they hit. Then the lrms will automatically start turning around to try and shoot at your fleet on the other side of them.
Generally you can then phase out before they hit what they target of your fleet.

Antorak is the best cap imo if you heavily micro and are sure you can get it to lvl 5. I could link tons of replays where i've taken on forces 50% mines size(with similar mix of ships) by microing the antorak, and no, not against noobs.
However, Antorak is useless without micro. It's auto cast is horrible, it's armor is crap, it is the lowest DPS cap in the game by far, and so on. (yes, LOWEST. The vasari carrier or sova isn't lower as they have 2 squads to start with, and then get more!)

Also of other caps abilities rely on hitting with a projectile (ie ion, evacuators armor reduction/phase stopper, nanites, yada yada) If you're quick enough like I am you can phase out ships before it hits and it cancles out the ability.


You know the "omg overpowered hax" malice+brilliance? Yeah well, brilliance doesn't work when you phase out the target. Ion, and other such things, also work of course.



Oh and Skirmishers aren't overpriced.. they're overpriced for a starting unit. With the repair tech they are very good, but you'll want the cost reduction tech as that takes off 78 or 88 credits each one i believe (so after 20 you make back the credit cost of the tech)
And Sentinels are useful as tanks, not just counter. The only thing they don't tank is heavy cruisers and light frigs. Flaks have the highest survivability/cost of any unit. It's very hard to kill a bunch of flaks so it buys you time to build more assailants.
Sentinels are as good as I say.. I did bad with them in that 1vs1 due to my asteroid bleeding me bad (i just wasn't thinking -_-) and letting you have that feild while i went and cleared the ice to try and level up my antorak.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I thought exactly the same thing about the whale and you can tell that from posts a few weeks ago, but my opinion changed when I saw another player use it extremely effective in killing caps (through its 2 abilities with assailant support) this was for an early rush before any of the caps were level 6, however I agree that volatile nanites are extremely effective and possibly the main reason to go devastator.

another thing is that even though it has the worst colonize ability of the three (I mentioned this multiple times across other threads)
- it still makes colonizing a bit faster. one colony ship cannot colonize a few asteroids in a really short period due to antimatter reserves.
- no need to spend 50 crystal on a colony ship. theres no need for colony ships at all as vasari if you get the colonize ability, while other races still need to colony ships for the capture ability.
- gives you 6 supply in that part of the early game (not a lot).

I never tried doing RA in 1v1, if you say that it is possible I might try figuring something out.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
I actually like the vasari carrier, but not for repair swarm (it will only repair the ship being focus-fired, just as you said). Rather I like the two strike craft abilities it possesses. I will concede, however, that it is not the ship of choice in an up-front fight, and it is also easily countered by building flak frigs.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Antorak is the best cap imo if you heavily micro and are sure you can get it to lvl 5. I could link tons of replays where i've taken on forces 50% mines size(with similar mix of ships) by microing the antorak, and no, not against noobs.
End of quote


I seem to recall wiping out most of your fleet when you came to attack my asteroid last game. I even chased you off your desert planet. Also, after I took your desert planet, HunterX had RA and I stopped microing altogether, except to play with the scouts and bomb your stuff.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
@OP,

It seems you don't use the Vasari strike craft. The Lasurak Transporters are quite nice IMO. Vasari Bombers with their Phase Missiles are great at assassinating capital ships and their Fighters are not only the strongest in dogfights once they've got hull/armor upgrades, but they're also the strongest in strafing with their shield-negating missiles.

A Junsurak Sentinel would be more effective at anti-fighter point defense with it's Charged Missiles, but a Fighter Squadron would be more effective at anti-bomber, anti-LRF, anti-scout, anti-siege and trade harassment operations, and would be invincible to everything but flak and much faster. Enemy strike craft can avoid flak simply by staying out of range and still being able to fire their weapons at other targets, but enemy strike craft cannot avoid fighters. The Sentinel is cheaper and uses less supply and less technology than the Transporter, but the Transporter is far more flexible. If fighters are not required, it can switch to a bomber squad in 90 seconds to deal heavier damage, and vice versa while a flak will always remain useless against everything except for unlucky strike craft who happen to come too close.

However, Antorak is useless without micro. It's auto cast is horrible, it's armor is crap, it is the lowest DPS cap in the game by far, and so on. (yes, LOWEST. The vasari carrier or sova isn't lower as they have 2 squads to start with, and then get more!)
End of quote


The Antorak's durability is not crap. It may not have such a strong hull from the beginning, but it's hull strength increase is the fastest of ANY capital ship at 150 per level, with the Dunov in a distant second place at 130/level and everything else further behind. It's armor is also equal to the Skirantra and Vulkoras' armor, greater than the Jarrasul but less than the Kortul.

It's DPS rating may look bad in raw numbers, but the majority of this comes through Phase Missiles and Pulse Beams, both of which have huge upgrade potential, and makes it easily stronger than the Wave-armed Jarrasul, despite the whale having an extra 2.6 raw DPS. Wave cannons(used heavily on the space whale) get a 25% damage boost, but Phase Missiles get a 20% damage & 25% shield negation boost, and Pulse Beams get a 35% damage boost(at Tier 4!). With it's firepower being concentrated at the front, it's takes out focused targets faster, and it also has gets a free squadron which can give a huge boost to it's DPS.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
5. Start Kortul when cap ship fac finishes

why dont you just queue it up before the factory finishes? which means you dont have to keep track of when the factory finishes (tiny thing, but still something).
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
The carrier is superb you're just using it incorrectly. Screw the repair skill; Having 4-5 bombers with microphasing right off the bat makes it excellent at harassing and destroying enemy structures early game.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
The following capital ships are useful in ORDER of usefulness:1. Devastator Battleship (Mana burn + attack speed)2. Marauder Battlecruiser (Free fighter squad at start + nice spells)
End of quote


Have you ever tried using the Marauder to stack subversion? Having a planet be 135% delayed on structure / ship build time - and having it be visible - is an amazing advantage. If you lose your shields, just boost away with the movement ability.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Hey was wondering if your have any Vasarai replay's maybe a couple with the different maps you were talking about. I am mostly a tec and would like to learn a second race.

P.S its a great thing your doing posting the strategies hopefully it improves the communities play.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
To steve

I don't use Marauder that much, since I think Kortul just dominates things in fleet battles. I might use it more in the future, and consider what you've said.

To sean

There are several replays of myself playing Vasari, but they're in different threads. I suppose I will have a "master thread" of all my replays, so people can take a look at my builds and gameplay.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
I'm surprised the Desolator isn't mentioned. Is the phase missile swarm ability not as great as I thought for fleet battles?
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Desolator = Dreadnaught already mentioned in the post as my #3 choice of capital ship.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
Ah, I see. Why select the Devastator over the Desolator? I'm still new, but it seems like the Desolator would have a big advantage because of phase missile swarm, especially once the phase missile upgrades are researched.

Thanks for taking the time to share your strats.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Question here:
- "The Whale" which vasari cap ship is that?
- Most people here seems to not go into the empire tech tree line? beside RA..?
- "2. Upgrade home planet" do you then mean max tactical and logistics slots and everything else or?

More may pop up, but thats it for now. Thanks in advance =)
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
the whale is the evacuator (colonizing cap ship)

upgrade home planet = upgrade the planet population

Vasari empire tech tree line is a waste of money in small/rush maps. If you're preparing for mid game, the media center helps (and if you're not worried about getting a military up quickly, trade centers are nice).
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah with the antorak's subversion on a map like point blank, or any other where you're within 2 jumps you can go in, use it, and just out LRM spam your opponent since you build them fast. It's a similar effect to embargo


and archpsi, yes with the whale you can lowered armor, damage over time, and stop jumps. But the problem is that if someone has a kortul and equal sized force, you'll be the one trying to jump away.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
yes with the whale you can lowered armor, damage over time, and stop jumps. But the problem is that if someone has a kortul and equal sized force, you'll be the one trying to jump away.
End of quote


if the kortul and whale meet pre level 6 and around level 4-5 and both have equal number assailants with them and some phasing tech, the whale will kill the kortul much faster (whale at level 5 does more dps with its nano-dissambler to target in front of it than a kortul which is level 10 with power surge) and since a lot of the damage is totally ignoring the shield the power surge will not add that much survivability to the kortul, the dps output of the whale will be higher for the first 60-80+ seconds and it will run out of mana around that time (disruptive strikes). Thats if both fleets are focusing killing each other caps, which isnt always the case, I cant really tell you what would happen if they are killing assailants one at a time, depends on antimatter, amount of ships..etc.

if its post level 6, the whale can use its speed reduction after the kortul uses volatile nanites (-60% to speed for 18 seconds, making assailants move at 320) and just reapply it and make its fleet possibly continue running/moving till the nanites expire (yep it might lose a few ships while first retreating), however I do agree that in the case of a direct ship to ship battle (no microing and no strike tactics) the kortul has more functionality.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

4-5: other two. Carrier sucks. Why? Repair hull is crap. You will repair the hull of the ONE ship they're focusing. Everything else doesn't benefit at all. Compared to restore shields, it's an order of magnitude worse.

End of quote



This shows that you are absolutely clueless. Repair ability repairs everything in radius of the ship. And fact is Skirantra carriers are the only cap worth getting as a vasari .

The rest of your strat shwos that you havent played against any good players either.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
^^

Clearly, you have shwos me the way to play Vasari.

I do most humbly apologize.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
This shows that you are absolutely clueless. Repair ability repairs everything in radius of the ship. And fact is Skirantra carriers are the only cap worth getting as a vasari .The rest of your strat shwos that you havent played against any good players either.
End of quote


Wow. Gee Tennessee I guess I'll build nothing but Skirantras now, lol!

What he meant is that you never really have more than 1 ship taking hull damage at a time, so it will rarely repair more than one ship. That doesn't mean it's terrible... and the other three abilities are pretty good. I get skirantras, just not first thing. Probably not second thing, either :P
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Repair Cloud is a strike craft support ability with it's short range. The strike craft can be micromanaged after an attack pass to fly through the cloud before their next pass and get repaired. Combined with the thick armoring, tough hulls and high native repair rate on the individual Vasari strike craft, this kind of nullifies any anti-strikecraft threat except for a very dense flak barrage.