Evil Stormbringer Evil Stormbringer

A thought with regards to general computer programming

A thought with regards to general computer programming

So my co-workers and I were discussing all of the inherent problems associated with Beta releases, and technology in general. Most of them remember when I first got this game and the issues that I was having, not to mention issues that others were having, as they saw when I would be on this forum. Now our general debate has to do with programmers claiming that there is no "perfect" program, so to speak. The most common answer given to defend "shoddy" (and I use shoddy loosely, not implying that this game, or any other software is necessarily bad)programs by the programmers is that there is always going to be a glitch, error, or other issue at one point or another, and that no program is flawless.
The heart of the debate is this: Should software companies be allowed to practice business this way? To put out a product and then collect money, only to update or improve later, sometimes at the expense of purchasing an expansion, or purchasing internet access for patches seems like bad business practice according to some in the debate. Others justify this and say pretty much what I stated above, adding that there would be hardly any games out there at all if a company waited until the finished product was perfect, which it never could be.
Someone mentioned that if you bought a lamp and took it home to find that it didn't light, you would return it. If your exchanged lamp does the same thing, repeat said steps to return. Now let's say the salesman told you that the lamp works fine as long as you jiggle it from time to time to keep it lit. Would you still want that lamp? And if you contacted the manufacturer with your complaint and they told you the same thing as the salesman, would you be happy with your purchase? Obviously you would think that the lamp manufacturer had better go back to the drawing board and try again. Other people threw in comments regarding cars, TV's, just about any product that we are used to using. Said companies wouldn't be in business if they supplied "incomplete" products or items that didn't work as advertised, every single time.
I myself don't know my exact position on this one. Some of you in here chastised me so much for assuming that software should work right out of the box that I had re-evaluated my take on it and find that I sit right in the middle on all of this. I mean, on the one hand you should get what you pay for, period. On the other hand, from what I've been told, to make a computer program is difficult work, and there will always be a glitch or bug making it's way into the code. What do any of you think about this?
In some small way I would have to say that if computers and their programs are really that infamous for errors, and that no one can write code without one or two glitches, then maybe the product shouldn't be as mainstream as it is, or at least it should be priced accordingly, experimental. Now please, if you do take the time to respond remember, this is merely a debate, and sadly enough, it is of enough interest to us on this end to come to some sort of conclusion regarding all of this.
edit: The only reason I posted this here was because we are all going through "beta testing" right now and your opinions would be better received than some random thoughts from a ten year old.  
57,869 views 68 replies
Reply #51 Top
I understand linkin park


Hello, I'm with the Terran Alliance. We claim these worlds for the nookie so you can take that cookie and shove it up your--YEAH!

Reply #52 Top
Actually Wheel, I would think you would want something more like Slayer or Slipknot wouldn't you? You know, "rain blood from a lacerated sky", or "man nearly killed me stepping where they fear to tread"... you know, something cheery for the holidays!  
Reply #53 Top
I remember when I was 15 and getting some on a regular basis. But that ended and I had a long dry spell until I went to college. It was some pretty tough times, but you get through it.
Reply #54 Top
then write a song about the sadness of the whole situation pouring out in a wave of emotion from my wrists


That right there is the epitome of an unoriginal emo kid...

However, if by chance ur a rap lyricist, maybe you want to do a rap bout Galactic Civ? I been meaning to make a hip-hop beat with some of the theme songs spliced.
Reply #55 Top
However, if by chance ur a rap lyricist


Please don't offend me sir. I am a MUSICIAN.

I remember when I was 15 and getting some on a regular basis. But that ended and I had a long dry spell until I went to college. It was some pretty tough times, but you get through it.


I honestly fail to see the relevance of that, but it's still pretty hilarious

Hello, I'm with the Terran Alliance. We claim these worlds for the nookie so you can take that cookie and shove it up your--YEAH!


Nookie = Limp Bizkit.

Linkin Park = CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN

THESE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUNDS THEY WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL NOT
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL
Reply #56 Top
Please don't offend me sir. I am a MUSICIAN.


Linkin Park = CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN

THESE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUNDS THEY WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL NOT
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL


Jay-Z and Linkin Park anyone? Ok... thought so.
Not only did your band sell out and work with, as you put it, "non-music", but they did it with one of the fakest MC's of all time...

Secondly, rap is definately music. See, in rock, jazz, whatever, the lyricist uses their voice as a pitched instrument to play melody.

In rap, the artist uses their voice as a percussion instrument to provide rhythm.

Don't confuse trashy popular artists (50 Cent, Jay-Z, etc) and their horrendous lyric choice with a trashy music genre.

Listen outside of mainstream radio.

By the way, some parts of regular linkin park songs are rap kthnx.

I'm sorry you don't like music that you can dance to
Reply #57 Top
Jay-Z and Linkin Park anyone? Ok... thought so.


Get.

Out.

Not only did your band sell out and work with, as you put it, "non-music", but they did it with one of the fakest MC's of all time...


I don't actually support linkin park, I just wubb sarcasm. I actually like RHCP, Nirvana etc.

Secondly, rap is definately music. See, in rock, jazz, whatever, the lyricist uses their voice as a pitched instrument to play melody


Sar.
Cas.
M.

Listen outside of mainstream radio.


I don't, and never will, listen to radio, mainstream or otherwise.

By the way, some parts of regular linkin park songs are rap kthnx.


GIMME AN S!
Reply #58 Top
I honestly fail to see the relevance of that, but it's still pretty hilarious

I guess I misread the situation. I'm glad you *don't* see the relevance of this.
Reply #59 Top

Ok, I'm going to return to the original topic.

One thing that software developers can do to reduce bugs is to write better code. There are a lot of books out there on the subject, one of the most popular being Code Complete.  My favorite reference book is Effective C++, closely followed by Effective STL.  As the titles suggest, they help you to write more effective code that is less likely to contain bugs due to unexpected results.  My code has gotten a lot better since I read them, not that it was horrible before.  But after reading Effective C++ and Effective STL, I forced myself to form better habits and use the tips in the book so now even when I'm tired or hungry or otherwise distracted, I'm less likely to make stupid mistakes that are hard to catch.

Reply #60 Top

This is a very interesting discussion which touches on a lot of points.

Here's a basic response:

1) Stardock has internal QA on its games. External betas helps with compatibility and game mechanics.  I ask you this: How might the release of Sword of the Stars and Space Empires V been different if they had had an open beta program prior to release?

2) No complex product of any kind will work perfectly for all people. GalCiv II 1.0 was not buggy by any industry-accepted consensus. That doesn't mean it was perfect. Dark Avatar won't be perfect either. 

As any of the GalCiv II beta testers could tell you, the game got the "it's done" call from the beta group. And they were correct, it was done.  Certainly 1% of users had some problem on it. And 1% of 100,000 users (in the opening weeks) is still 1,000 angry people posting on the forums. Add another couple thousand people who would report things that were user error and you get a lot of traffic.

For example, what % of the "bug reports" on the forums were really people with 4 year old video card drivers who ignored the dialog that said "You MUST upgrade your video drivers or else the game will crash."  Anyone who has actually looked at the "bug reports" knows that the great majority of such reports were drivers.

Even the GPU overheating issue isn't a bug in our code. We shouldn't have to throttle the GPU. We did add it because the practical result of not throttling the GPU was that some people had random crashes due to it overheating.  When we added that to 1.0X, the "bugs" largely disappeared.

3) Stardock has always released betas very early to give players the opportunity to tell us what they think before it's too late.  Starbases in GalCiv 1 came from beta tester suggestions.

4) I would not consider having resources diverted to shielding out the most recent responses in order to hide beta reports.  They're all part of the picture.  We want people to know that we operate transparently.  It has served us well thus far.

Reply #61 Top
I remember when I was 15 and getting some on a regular basis. But that ended and I had a long dry spell until I went to college. It was some pretty tough times, but you get through it.


Dude, I'm laughing. That came out of nowhere.

Mumble's rocking it Grandpa Simpson style.
Reply #62 Top
I guess I misread the situation. I'm glad you *don't* see the relevance of this.


I cannot possibly respond to that comment at all, so I'll laugh again and reassure you that I'm fine.
Reply #63 Top
even when I'm tired or hungry or otherwise distracted, I'm less likely to make stupid mistakes that are hard to catch.


Don't comment your code.

If it was hard to write, it should be hard to read.

Code Complete. My favorite reference book is Effective C++, closely followed by Effective STL.


I will check these out. Thanks. BTW, the Green Party of Palm Beach County worships you after I passed around copies of articles about you earlier this year. I'm certain that when they find a woman with my skill set they will promptly get rid of me. Lucky for me, Palm Beach County is a world renowned intellectual vacuum. My job is safe.

4) I would not consider having resources diverted to shielding out the most recent responses in order to hide beta reports. They're all part of the picture. We want people to know that we operate transparently. It has served us well thus far.


Brad, not sure I agree about having beta comments show up on the front page. DA isn't out until February and the holiday season starts Friday. People are stupid and seldom know how to distinguish the game they bought from the comments about the beta.

I'm not saying that you should filter them from the recent posts part of the forum section proper; just the front page.
Reply #64 Top
Don't comment your code.

If it was hard to write, it should be hard to read.


HOLY CRAP

Finally somebody else that believes in this philosophy! Especially relevant in verbose languages like C++ and Java.


And I thought I was a crazy man
Reply #65 Top

Don't comment your code.

If it was hard to write, it should be hard to read.

Actually, my rule of thumb is, if it's hard to write, you're overthinking it.  99% of the time when I'm having a horrible time coding something, there's a quicker and easier solution.  Taking a break and talking with co-workers helps open up your brain for that "Ahah!" moment.

BTW, the Green Party of Palm Beach County worships you after I passed around copies of articles about you earlier this year.

LOL! That's hillarious.   Those articles have gotten out a lot farther than I thought they would.

Reply #66 Top
HOLY CRAP

Finally somebody else that believes in this philosophy! Especially relevant in verbose languages like C++ and Java.


I jest, of course. Commenting code saves my brain cells for the other things in life.

I learned to comment the hard way--coming back to code after long periods and spending unwarranted time trying to figure out wtf I did and why I did it.

LOL! That's hillarious. Those articles have gotten out a lot farther than I thought they would.


Your work is important to a lot of people. Not the least of which are the fraktard monkeys (me included) that make up this GC community.

I was annoyed to see this article on girl geeks. Somehow Lisa Simpson and Paris "ho bag" Hilton are women to look up to in the history of technology.

There are enough limey wanks on this forum to follow the link and set the record straight. Push Cari's work at Stardock.
Reply #67 Top
Somehow Lisa Simpson and Paris "ho bag" Hilton are women to look up to in the history of technology.


...
That's just moronic. That pushes stupidity to new heights. I'm actually going to need to take a shower. I feel disgustingly dirty being put into the same social group as a brainless whore like Hilton :/

There is no way in hell she deserves to be on that list. At least practically every review told them that.

Now quick, lets spam them with Cari and Kristen petitions before they let Morgan Webb on there! 7 AND 10 ARE FREE!

EDIT: By group I mean geeks. Anyone who references the frog mutant thread will suffer cursing to the nth generation.