1.3 and still the AI can't focus

from GalCiv2 Forums
I took a decently long break from GC2 since I was finding the AI annoyingly unable to manage its troop transports and star bases. When 1.3 came out and was mostly about the AI (or so it seemed) I dove back in again.

Yuck.

The AI still cannot handle its transports or starbases.

I think its more a question of focus though than anything else. I've been playing at crippling which should have all AI features on, if not then please advise as to the change.

The basics of it are that the AI will overbuild transports, not defend them, and not even attack open planets when they are in range. Its a trifecta of ineptitude which makes warring the AI too too simple. I've notices this behavior in every build of GC2 and I've brought it up several times, and I understood some of Brads reasons for why the AI is not always optimal in its tactics. And yet the fix to these problems seems to overwhelmingly simple that I do not understand why it is not made.

So what is the fix? Well first of all stop building 10s of transports when not at war. Second, *NEVER* leave transports in a square where there is not a friendly fleet or war ship. Third, after the AI wins the space battle, INVADE!!!

This last one is truely bizarre, in my last game I made an alliance with the Arceans where were listed as #1 and for some reason the terrans decide to declare war on me, even though I'm on the other side of the galaxy and the Arceans and their massive military are right next door (another possible glitch? Declaring war on allied players when the AI will get waffle stomped by the allied neighbor?). Of course I rush over a couple of battleships to see whats what, and by the time they get there the Arceans have wiped the terrans ships out and have 12! full transports in the sector which just sit there turn after turn while I slowly send over the transports I'm churning out gobbleing up the Terran space. I mean it makes no sense to me, this was the definition of free lunch for the Arceans and they are acting like they just hit the all you can eat Iconian buffet.

And that behavior is not limited to just that one game, and not just allies. Indeed I rarely if ever build a warship until far into the game since even if someone declares war on me they rarely are able to invade, even when I see the transports comeing, and there's nothing I can do to intercept them, they don't actually invade the planets, they just kind of wait for me to build a cheap interceptor (one gun lots of engines) to destroy 10s of transports just sitting around. Indeed that strategy is seemingly so powerful against the AIs that I don't see any point in ever developing a military other than a handful of interceptors (if needed) and the eventual assualt fleets to wipe out the AIs when that time comes (if it comes...).

True true, turn off tech trading, change victory conditions, ... blah blah blah, none of that addresses the underlying issue.

And as a final point on focus, I've been noticing the AIs still don't get how to use starbases. They will drop one somewhere, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it mught not make much sense, but they are using it for range, fine. Whats not so fine is when they build another identical SB next to it. What's the point? Add a module instead, I 'm not talking about fully decked out SBs, I'm talking about one constructor SBs.

Hell even their econ and military starbases get built using this 'batch' process which is so inefficient... And yah, they may not have the next tech to add the next module sometimes, but I'm talking about bases with NO modules on them yet, and they plop another down next to it...

Bizarre.
14,180 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
1.3 AI is better than 1.2 there is no doubt about it.

But yes AI does still build massive amounts of transports. In my latests 1.3 game Arcaens builded only transports. I repeat all their planets were full of transports and there was no ship with attacking strenght.

Planet building is much better and actually I lost my first 1.3 game on Tough. So its getting better but hopefully Brad can fix the AI:s ultimate love towards transports.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I had a similar gripe about the AI in 1.2 in this thread:

https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=162&aid=124614#969162

But my focus at that time was on the inability of the AI to converge ships on an imposing enemy threat or at it's imminent arrival at a planet. Now it seems that the Transports are an issue, and they ought not to travel -whatsoever- without escort and a pre-invasion fleet. This seems to me, and probably to most of you out there, only natural.

Fortunately or unfortunately I still carry on with this game because I'm so enthralled by it's potential. But issues like these really need to get dealt with.

Really, I can see no other issue in the game that needs quicker and more fastidious attention. The issue of the AI offensive/defensive maneouver.

Multiplayer be damned till this is addressed, as you can't expect good AI actions to be a constant harrassment while playing other friends (3 Human, 3 AI for instance). If the AI isn't up to snuff then why add the random AI players at all? (except perhaps to colonize for the Human players who would eventually come and snuff them anyway). They will only eat up Anomolies and delay taking of resource base points in that case.

Remember flamers...I mentioned that I really do like this game, as I think by far most of this community does, we just have to beeyatch a bit to get the focus we truely want.

I'm fairly certain Brad and crew are doing copious amounts of coffee to help us all here...but might I suggest some Espresso?
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Indeed I rarely if ever build a warship until far into the game since even if someone declares war on me they rarely are able to invade, even when I see the transports comeing, and there's nothing I can do to intercept them, they don't actually invade the planets, they just kind of wait for me to build a cheap interceptor (one gun lots of engines) to destroy 10s of transports just sitting around.


Now that's just weird. While I haven't gotten a chance to play around with 1.3, I haven't seen anything like that. Additionally, while I do find that the AI will spam unprotected transports, but only if you don't have a significant military force; once I get defenders and interceptors built and put into service, it doesn't take too long for the AI to catch on and start sending escorts and pre-invasion forces.



One problem I do see, though, is that the AI often builds way too many freighters. Even when they already have their maximum number of trade routes, they'll pump out several more. These excess freighters also get sent out to form trade routes, which they obviously fail to do once they reach their destination, and you end up with lots of idle ships lying around and eating up resources (of both the computer system and the AI civ's economy) for literally no reason.

Another pointless behavior is that, despite being both immune to cultural assimilation and unable to generate any influence of their own, minor races will scramble to build copious diplomatic starbases around their planet--and abroad as well--in a futile attempt to thwart a nonexistant threat. Of course, this ends up hindering the already-handicapped minor races because they could be building economic starbases to increase trade profits (or perhaps, in the case of the Dark Yor and Snathi, building military starbases and warships so that they can actually terrorize the galaxy like their reputations claim).

I also agree that the AI handles starbases in general rather poorly; although they do have enough sense to build diplomatic starbases in order to protect against cultural assimilation and spread their influence into remote and empty space, I can't recall ever seeing the AI build them in order to spread their influence onto a foreign planet. They only ever build one or two military and/or economic starbases as well, and the ones that do get built are rarely upgraded enough to make any difference.



I'll say again, though, that I haven't gotten to play with 1.3, so I don't know if any part of what I've described has changed for me under that version.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
1.3 is still in beta. The ship building part hasn't been touched. Only diplomacy and planetary management.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
1.3 is still in beta. The ship building part hasn't been touched. Only diplomacy and planetary management.


Well those parts I find to be much better than previous builds so kudos to you and the team for a job well done there!

However, the transport thing is really bugging me. I started another game on crippleing and semi-handicapped myself to try and force myself to be a fat juicy target for my neighbors. I even picked only evil actions since the Torians and Altarians were neighbors. Things go along as usual with me completely ignoring ship techs and building any kind of defense (though my diplo is high anyway, maybe diplo is too strong in preventing wars?).

Finally the Torians declare on me and send a fleet of two ships to take out a resource star base close to them, I scramble up a couple of frigates to counter them and then... wow! ~15 full transports start moving at me... I got nothing on my planets, and one planet is in range of some of their transports.

But ~7 turns later all their transports are dead, and none of them invaded. Its getting really really annoying, here I am asking for them to kick my a$$ and they won't do it. They have loaded transports within range of open planets and THEY DONT MOVE. They don't even run away when I stick a war ship RIGHT NEXT TO THEM.

Sorry for the caps, but I seriously think something is screwy with the transport code for (some of) the AI(s). Assuming they arn't all using the same code for that part of the game.

I mean they build fast transports which should be able to blitz in past whatever interceptor fleet I build (usually anyway). They even build enough of them that they should be able to take down my high pop planets. Maybe the AI(s) only look at 1 transport at a time, see it can't win so decide not to invade? I dunno, but something is definately not kosher in my games.

So my plea is for you to get dirty with that code and see if there isn't something which is either not being executed correctly, or add in some more routines to where the invasion part of the game isn't as completely one sided as I find it to be.

Again, my recomendations are for the AI to *NEVER* leave trasnports undefended, either with escorts, or just stacked in the same square as another war fleet. For the AI to not overbuild transports *especially* during times of peace. And for the AI to actually, you know, invade when they have an open shot and enough transports to do the job.

That information is available to the AI right? I mean that a planet has no ships on it, and the population. Maybe there's some hang up with the way the AI is handleing its sensor knowledge in relation to planets or something.

I'm just guessing thouhg...
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top



One problem I do see, though, is that the AI often builds way too many freighters. Even when they already have their maximum number of trade routes, they'll pump out several more. These excess freighters also get sent out to form trade routes, which they obviously fail to do once they reach their destination, and you end up with lots of idle ships lying around and eating up resources (of both the computer system and the AI civ's economy) for literally no reason.


Well I do this - build more freighters, I mean - so that if I lose trade routes due to declaring war or having it declared on me, I can replace those routes almost instantly. Freighters don't cost anything to maintain, and they make decent scouts, since the AI never objects to them being there.


Another pointless behavior is that, despite being both immune to cultural assimilation and unable to generate any influence of their own, minor races will scramble to build copious diplomatic starbases around their planet--and abroad as well--in a futile attempt to thwart a nonexistant threat. Of course, this ends up hindering the already-handicapped minor races because they could be building economic starbases to increase trade profits (or perhaps, in the case of the Dark Yor and Snathi, building military starbases and warships so that they can actually terrorize the galaxy like their reputations claim).

I also agree that the AI handles starbases in general rather poorly; although they do have enough sense to build diplomatic starbases in order to protect against cultural assimilation and spread their influence into remote and empty space, I can't recall ever seeing the AI build them in order to spread their influence onto a foreign planet. They only ever build one or two military and/or economic starbases as well, and the ones that do get built are rarely upgraded enough to make any difference.



I'll say again, though, that I haven't gotten to play with 1.3, so I don't know if any part of what I've described has changed for me under that version.


I agree with you on the starbases - it's weird to see 4 or 5 1 or 2 module bases all of the same type right next to each other. They must be costing the AI a fortune in logistics fees to build & maintain, apart from anything else.

Still, the AI has got noticeably better with each update, and I expect it to improve again with Dark Avatar.

Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

The starbase stuff is trickier than one thinks. When I code that stuff, I know exactly what I want. The code appears to do what I want. And yet I will often see the same thing you do - a lot of wimpy little starbases right next to each other.

It's frustrating.

Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The starbase stuff is trickier than one thinks. When I code that stuff, I know exactly what I want. The code appears to do what I want. And yet I will often see the same thing you do - a lot of wimpy little starbases right next to each other.
It's frustrating.


Hehe, well so long as you are seeing it too

Since you added the hard cap of SBs per sector does it make sense to not allow the AIs to build new (read different type SBs) in a sector until any existing SBs (of same type) are fully decked out? You would have to differentiate between bonus moduals and defense modules though, as it may not make sense to max out the defense before adding new SBs for more boni.

Of course you should also completely scrap military SBs in my opinion they are pretty much completely useless as the AI doesn't seem to understand how to either protect them, or stay in their support range. And from a player pov they are even more useless. The resources wasted on them and then building your tiny ships to try and max the benefit of the pluses are much better spent on either econ SBs so that you can build real ships. Now if you are going to allow for miitary starbases to move, that'd change the equation a bit... Not that I really want dreadstars back, I'd prefer it if you just scraped them completely, or just allowed those modules to be built on the other two chasis, just put in a lower cap on the number of modules availabe per starbase, or scale that value with logistics tech or something.

Oh and please give me some feedback on the transports issue so I know I'm not barking up the wrong tree

Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Personally, I thought 1.2 more or less solved the transport problem for me. I lost my first game on crippling (stop laughing, there were only 3 or 4 habitable planets in my quarter of the galaxy on a medium / abundant map and that's counting Earth and Mars). In any case, not only was almost every transport well defended and placed in fleets with multiple combat ships, but the Yor were very quick to actually invade planets once they cleared the way to them. Maybe I'm just (un)lucky that way.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
but the Yor were very quick to actually invade planets once they cleared the way to them. Maybe I'm just (un)lucky that way.


Well maybe its a Yor AI thing then? I don't think the Yor have ever really been in any kind of position to do much of anything in the game I remember.

Continuing with my game from the other day I got the Arceans to declare on me as well, and while they had some escorts with their transports, they still failed to invade open planets. Though seriously one HF escort isn't going to do squat as a deterent. Transports really should just be stacked on squares with the invasion fleets attack ships. Escorts are often underpowered compared to the war ships and as such are seemingly a complete waste of production.

I'd also rail on the horrific use of defender classed ships, but I can at least understand why the AI would build them, even if they are essentially useless after large ships are built.

Don't get me wrong though, the game continues to improve overall, but the AIs tactics with transports really ruin what could otherwise be more of a challenge. I know I've said it before on these forums, but MoO3s design made this aspect of the game much much easier for the AIs. Of course it took a user mod to fix the no invasion there as well, but even so, the ability to glass was still key.

I don't actually want planetary bombardment in GC2 (or in GC3), I like that you have to coordinate your ground troops as well, only that the AI is so utterly incompetent with that part of it that there is no challenge in defending against it.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The starbase stuff is trickier than one thinks. When I code that stuff, I know exactly what I want. The code appears to do what I want. And yet I will often see the same thing you do - a lot of wimpy little starbases right next to each other.
It's frustrating.


Hey Brad, is there a possibility of providing an API (the same API that the AIs would use to direct their turns) so that people who say "how hard can it be??!?!" can put their code where their mouth is?

I'm semi-serious here. If you were just wrap an IDL around whatever API your AI algorithms use and export them as COM objects and include some simple way (maybe just detailed via a config file) to get the game to load user-defined AIs, then we can really add to the game, I think.

You could get people trying to duke it out with other people's AIs. Not only would people realize just how hard it is to keep track of everything, but they could maybe come up with some creative ways of doing things that could be added back into the game.

I'm not suggesting publishing the source to your AIs, just give an API so the more geeky of us can attempt to write our own. And people could release their AIs to the Library (along with source, hopefully, so that other can tweak the good ones).

Maybe in an expansion pack, or GalCiv3?