The MOO Factor

from GalCiv2 Forums
After recently browsing the forum I saw a post that expressed some frustration about gameplay in the late game -- especially in a huge or gigantic universe. Eventually, you can get so large and strong that none of the other races can possibly stand against you. Personally this doesn't bother me too much as I enjoy the process of building a tremendous superpower -- sometimes the process of creating a "perfect society" is just as rewarding as conquering all of my neighbors. Nevertheless I think there are some things that could be done to make the endgame a little more interesting. One of my favorite parts of the MOO series, especially MOO 2, were higher level challenges you faced after achieving an obvious dominence of the galaxy. For those not familiar with the series, during the game a highly advanced race known at the Antarens, who inhabited another dimension, would occaisionally send fleets of extremely powerful ships to attack and raid your colonies. Eventually, when your race became sufficiently strong and you researched enough technology that you could stand up to them, you could send your ships to that alternate dimension and wipe out the Antarens once and for all. MOO also featured planets that were protected by extremely poweful starships -- unlike the Antarens, the ships protecting these planets would never initiate an attack against any of the other normal races; instead, they protected their planets (which usually contained the secrets of some new technologies or other advantages) and required you to develop your technological and military might to capture them. These types of challenges would add an extra element of fun to the game, and keep things interesting after you've achieved an obvious dominance over all of your neighbors. The foundation for this is already present in the game -- the Dread Lords could assume the role of the Antarens. Having an alternate dimension inhabited by an extremely powerful race would give your massive army a purpose after conquering the majority of the galaxy. Furthermore, periodic attacks by the Dread Lords on all of the normal races would keep things fresh, and add a certain element of random challenge to the game (this was also accomplished in Star Trek: Birth of the Federation with the occaisional appearance of the Borg). This might be a great idea for the expansion -- for that matter, someone might even be able to create a MOD that did this. What are some other thoughts on this?
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Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think that's a GREAT idea. It would be like having one or more powerful minor races that kept themselves to themselves usually, but might emerge from their home star system when they felt threatened (i.e., when someone got strong enough to worry them) and/or whose home planets contained bonus tiles that would make a difficult invasion worthwhile (e.g., precursor artifacts, advanced structures, etc.). Prior to that, any communication would be greeted by a "Stay away or be destroyed" message and they'd presumably have the firepower to back that threat up.

An intriguing thought, assuming that the AI could handle it, would be that they might be encouraged to deal advanced technology to another, similarly ethically-aligned race with the intent of keeping the threatening race in check (kinda like the Shadows in Babylon 5).

It would certainly be a great way to add another layer of difficulty to the game once you'd "got over the initial hump." Hmmm, now you've really piqued my interest.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sounds sound. Dread Lords on Parade already partly fulfills this idea, but having the kind of late-game challenge you're proposing, would keep galaxy fresh and, well, challenging , long after most people's attention/commitment wanes. Perhaps once you research a certain high level tech, some (formerly uninhabitable) planets could be revealed to be already inhabited by dormant Dread Lords now awakened?
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sounds sound. Dread Lords on Parade already partly fulfills this idea, but having the kind of late-game challenge you're proposing, would keep galaxy fresh and, well, challenging , long after most people's attention/commitment wanes. Perhaps once you research a certain high level tech, some (formerly uninhabitable) planets could be revealed to be already inhabited by dormant Dread Lords now awakened?


That's a good thought too, though you'd have to make the trigger somewhat variable or you'd start waiting to research certain technologies until you thought you were tough enough to handle the challenge. The more I think about it, It would be great to add that dimension - can you imagine getting a message, as you're cruising along through the tech tree and feeling confident, that reads something like, "Your recent technological discovery has alerted an ancient and powerful entity to your existence. Their first message to you was brief but to the point - Prepare to be destroyed."

Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
To add a little more to this thought, part of why I like this idea is that the A.I. doesn't really have to do anything. The advanced race (presumabley the Dread Lords) which inhabit this other universe wouldn't need to research any technology -- they'd simply already have it. They wouldn't colonize any worlds -- their worlds would already be prepopulated. Their ships would simply pop into the "normal" universe periodically, harass a few people, and then pop out. In fact, they wouldn't necessarily produce anything until you "crossed over" and started invading their worlds in the alternate dimension -- at that point, they would start producing more ships (in addition to the ships they automatically had) to repel your invasion. The only siginficant change that would need to be made would be to include an option in the user interface to swtich back and forth between the normal universe and this alternate universe once you started sending ships over there.

p.s. The technology that allowed ships to "cross-over" would obviously require extensive research and only be attainable in the late game. Perhaps it would be a module you could install on a starship which allowed all of the ships in a fleet to make the jump.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
excellent idea!!
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I hope someone from Stardock sees this. Great idea.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
a good idea, but only if GC3 has them return, take over the galaxy, genocide every back to just one planet, then mysteriously withdraw to just one system themselves, leaving a power vaccuum into which the players can expand and build up enough force to finally kick them out for good.

alternately, i'd like the option of personally crashing a ship stuffed full of nukes into their capital city... that would be fine too.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
VERY good ideas. How about once you control a certain % of the galaxy, and there is no way you could lose, this "Elder Race" could pop up?

" Due to unknown cicumstances the Thalan Empire seems to have surrendered to an unknown force"

Then you'd see the Thalan Empire cease to exsist and it would be "The Dreadlords" (or whomever). This new race would automatically have all the "Evil" weapons (Psyonic shredder, beam, missiles) and immediately attack with large fleets.

Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I like this idea very much too. While I don´t really get bored in the late game (I also like building my "perfect society" or just watching the rest of the galaxy pay tribute), this would certainly spice things up!
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Okay, here's a more "fleshed out" version of my idea. The Dread Lords periodically send ships from their alternate dimension to harass the younger races. These attacks increase in intensity as you become stronger and more advanced. The key to unlocking the technology to invade their dimension is hidden on three or four special planets, which are spread out in different corners of the galaxy. These planets are protected by powerful guardians who never go on the offensive, but will try to repel any attempt to colonize these planets. After conquering these guardians and colonizing these worlds, you uncover the technology that will allow you to cross-over into Dread Lord space. You must capture all of these owrlds in order to obtain the technology. Once you have it, you will be able to install a special "jump" module on your ships that will allow you to transport an entire fleet into their space. At this point the attacks form the Dread Lords become even more intense. Once you manage to conqure the Dread Lords and capture their planets in the alternate universe, the attacks stop and you are free to finish the game however you choose.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I also think this is a great idea... but I'd want it to be a check box during setup. That way you could play without worrying that the Dread Lords were coming to ruin the party. Also, I'd like to see if you played with the DL's, it was random when they showed up (although obviously it'd have to start late-game for you to have a chance) or if they showed up at all. You might have a game where you were trying to win a Cultural or Tech victory or something like that, where as youo got closer and closer to victory, you'd sweat out when (or if) the baddies were coming...
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If something like that will be included, please leave it optional as it is exactly that kind of scripted AI that I don't like and don't want to see in GalCiv2. The AI is getting better and better and IMHO that is the part Stardock should concentrate on, not to circumvent possible weakness (and by the way, they improved the AI with every patch).

For example I was playing HoI2 for a long time and it is a great game, but people could easily beat the AI by concentrating on its weakness (the AI wasn't really good at surviving encirclement battles, it did a horrible job when it tried to break out of the pocket ...), mods came around that gave the AI tons of fresh divisions out of nowhere, so that players were able to destroy them in some more encirclements and so on ... I really find cheating AI annoying and cheating AI with scripted reinforcement is even worse.


Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well well well. Is it an impression of mine, or here someone is suggesting to introduce in GC2 some elements of MOO2 (and, perhaps, Master of Magic - remember the Mirror plane?)?
Since i consider MOO2 and MOM two of the better games I ever played, I fully agree. But let me notice that, when I posted (quite a while ago) a few consideration (if you wish, you may search the "Delusion" posts) about how some features of MOO2 would have made GC2 a funnier game, a lot of people blamed me (albeit courteously) for being a noltagic who do not have understood the true spirit of GC2.
Glad to see more and more players acknowledge that from time to time old games have an edge on the new ones.
Nonetheless, we must admit that Stardock is doing a good job in refining its creation. Maybe that if the developers stop to improve the AI (for this post and other demonstrate that the efforts in that way are not so fruitfully) and introduce in the game some old good stuff (such as the Antarean raids), we are able to play with satisfaction till the last turn, even in gigantic galaxies.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I argee with #13 puntarenas - this was an OPTION in moo2 and if included in GC3...
It should be an OPTION ...

Hey, I played MOO2 for years, about 1/2 of games with NO Antarians

I loved the Space Monsters .... give me that OPTION in GC3 !!!

Byram

Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hehe, remember the brth of federation, when the borg comes, or when Gaseous Lifeform kick your ass. Chodak Dreadnought was cool, Crystal Enitity...ooohhhh.... And yeah, the Edo Guardian! Damn, that game is cool, too bad it's not so well developed, i would like to enslave the planets like in birth of federation, or make them join to my *cough* interstellar domination scheme!
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I definitely agree that this option would require an on/off switch during game setup. I certainly don't want anyone to misinterpret my intentions here -- I think Stardock has done a fantastic job with this product and even without any further changes/improvements I will be playing this game for years to come. This is simply something that came to mind as I read posts from players who were a little frustrated about the late game in a huge or gigantic galaxy. After all, it doesn't matter how good the AI is -- once you control 3/4 of a gigantic galaxy there's basically no way that it is going to make a comeback. This would simply be an option that players could choose to include in their game that would provide a little more purpose to a massive empire at the end of the game.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
speaking of BotF it is still being worked on by a modding team... it actually works on winXP thanks to their patch and they are improving it further...

I would like to have some space monsters and gaurdians too, and an optional bad guys would be nice but I don't think they fit the plot... the dreadlords are TRAPPED in their mini universe, they cant just pop in and pop out... that is, until they are unleashed and all come out in force.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
speaking of BotF it is still being worked on by a modding team... it actually works on winXP thanks to their patch and they are improving it further...



What are you talking about? There are a few mods out there but there's not much going on. And I've never had problems running the game on XP.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Cheesey Muffins From Space!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Galciv is not MOO!!
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Galciv is not MOO!!


very clever richrf . But they are definitely right about random dreadlord appearances spicing up the game. I'd also like to see more random events occurring. And the fact that when ethics is reached you don't seem to get anymore ethical choice scenarios, they just dry up.
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I was never able to get BoTF to work on xp. I instaled another drive with win98 to run that, Star wars rebellion and Moo2.

I think we will see a LOT of this happen in the mod community given time. Just be patient