Veblen Veblen

The case for changing excess production mechanism

The case for changing excess production mechanism

RIght now, if a planet with 50 military production is building a ship that requires 20 more points to complete, the difference of 30 points is wasted and the player is charged for it. This applies for social production as well. Research is different, as the excess production towards a technology carries over to the next technology (unless the researched technology was the last in the branch, in which case the excess research is wasted and the player is charged for it).

I'm proposing to change the handling of excess production so that it's carried over to the next ship, building, or tech. The motivation for this change is to reduce the need for micromanagement by eliminating the incentive for micromanagement.

With the current system, there are sudden changes in payoff for small changes in input. Consider this:

Three planets building a 160 cost fighter in current system:
Planet A, 158 military production, 2 turns to complete (316 charged per fighter)
Planet B, 164 military production, 1 turn to complete (164 charged per fighter)
Planet C, 640 military production, 1 turn to complete (640 charged per fighter)

Three planets building a 160 cost fighter in proposed system:
Planet A, 158 military production, on average 1.013 turns to complete (160 charged per fighter)
Planet B, 164 military production, on average 0.976 turns to complete (160 charged per fighter)
Planet C, 640 military production, on average 0.25 turns to complete (160 charged per fighter, 4.0 fighters per turn)

And now for the details.

Proposed handling of excess social production:
Extra production is applied to to progress of the next building in the queue; the process is repeated if this extra production completes the next building as well. If social production remains and the build queue is empty, the extra social production becomes military production.

Proposed handling of excess military production:
Extra production is applied to building an additional ship of the same model; as above, the process of moving excess production is repeated, allowing multiple ships to be built on a planet in one turn.

Proposed handling of excess military production:
Instead of being applied automatically to the "next tech in the branch" as it is now (which is ok but not ideal), excess research should be stored and applied to whichever technology the player selects as the next research target. At this point (after user input), the process is repeated. So if you had a total research in a turn of 1200 and decided to start researching the Armor Path, at the beginning of your turn you see the following series of menus:
You've researched Armor Theory! (at this point, 1120 RP remaining)
Research selection screen: user selects "Titanium Armor"
You've researched Titanium Armor! (1040 RP remaining)
Research selection screen: user selects "Titanium Armor II"
You've researched Titanium Armor II! (850 RP remaining)
And now maybe that's enough armor, and I want to switch to Expert Minitiaturization
Research selection screen: user selects "Expert Miniaturization', progress 850/5000)
In other words, allow the player to select each technology when researching multiple techs in a turn.

These changes would eliminate the waste that micromanging seeks to minimize, and in so doing would obviate micromanagement of production. Moving to the new system would take a moderate amount of work: implementing the new formulae, modifying the UI for when techs are researched, rebalancing in light of higher (waste-free) production levels, maybe some slight AI changes. It would make a huge difference when it comes to the user experience, though, especially on higher levels where micromanagement becomes a big (and unwelcome) part of the game.
20,035 views 36 replies
Reply #26 Top
Holy crap, I had no idea I was being charged for all that stuff! No wonder I kept losing at high difficulty levels. Now I know what I was doing wrong: I wasn't micromanaging enough.

Of course, I'd really rather devote my efforts to larger strategic and diplomatic matters, and Veblen's proposal, if enacted, would allow me to do just that.

Jeez, that really would make the game more fun... Brad, are you getting this?
Reply #27 Top
Someone linked this post from my post and this is totally exaclty what I was saying.

Except I think the reaerch doesn't need such a big change, it should only store the extra research like you proposed when you research an end of the line tech.
Reply #28 Top
As for how to handle research, there is a lot of room for compromise.

Our goal is to find a game mechanic that doesn't require micromanagement and that is also easy to use. We have some options:

1. Current system. Pros: Multiple techs (in same branch) can be researched in one turn, very easy to use. Cons: Spending at the end of a tech tree branch is wasted, users can not research techs from different branches in a single turn.

2. Proposal in OP. Pros: Each unit of research can be assigned exactly where the player wants with zero waste, with multiple techs per turn. Cons: Can require multiple user inputs in a turn if multiple techs are researched.

3. Like 2, but done with a queue that is designated before hand. Pros: Perfect allocation, zero waste--same as 2. Cons: Requires that a UI for making a queue be added; also, what happens when the queue runs out, and how do you specifcy future techs in the queue? For example, if I have Laser I and want to research Laser II and Laser III next turn, then I would have to be able to put a currently inaccessable tech (Laser III) in the queue.

4. BoomFrog's system in #27 which is a modification of the current system but storing research when it would be wasted. Pros: only requires slight adjustment, fixes the current system's waste problem with a minimum of UI or other changes. Cons: Players can't research techs from multiple branches in one turn.


So, I think 2 or 3 would get us closer to the ideal system, but 4 is an attractive, and maybe the best, choice. 2 or 3 may be slightly better, but the cost of implementing 4 is very low, and when costs and benefits are weighed 4 might well be the best. I think it's the most realistic, at any rate, since Stardock has shown no interest in making big changes to these particular mechanisms.
Reply #29 Top
Hi!
Just in case you didn't know: last turn excess social production is no more wasted , but returned to treasury. Just checked with a testbed. However excess military production is still wasted.

BR, Iztok
Reply #30 Top
Actually, excess social production is converted into military production. So when military production is wasted, it often consists partly of social production.
Reply #31 Top
I agree with this idea in principle, but this is how I would change it:

1) Excess Research- no change from how it is presently handled
2) Excess Social- spills over into the next social projects in queue (ie. make it work like research)
3) Excess Military- refund your excess money (it is too abusable to create the same ship over and over too quickly- like for a constructor)

Social and Research spending have built in limits- eventually you can't get any further (for social- you build all the building you can build, and for research- you get all the techs in a tree). Military does not have that limit, so one must be careful to monitor if there is an abusable interaction with it. That's why I don't think military should spill over like the other kinds of productions.
Reply #32 Top
Iztok Bitenc wrote:
Just in case you didn't know: last turn excess social production is no more wasted


Jonathan Moriarity wrote:
Actually, excess social production is converted into military production.


Are we talking about the same thing? If you are building a farm during your turn and that farm requires 30 production to complete and your planet makes 50 production, are you saying that the extra 20 will not be wasted now? As far as I know, "excess" social production is not turned into military production--this transfer occurs only when you're not building any social projects.
Reply #33 Top
Hi!
If you are building a farm during your turn and that farm requires 30 production to complete and your planet makes 50 production, are you saying that the extra 20 will not be wasted now?

Correct. Do try it by yourself.
1) Build a building to 90%. Check the treasury in the lower left corner. Change spendings/taxes to get income 0. Press Next turn. Check the treasury again. It is increased by the amount of money that was not spent to finish the building.

2) Build another building to 90%. Put in production a cheap ship, change the mil. spending to 1%, 99% social. Change spendings to get income 0. Press Next turn. Check the treasury again. It is increased by the amount of money that was not spent to finish the building, and was also not diverted to building the ship, that still shows almost 0% built. Only production from empty social queue is diverted to military queue.


BR, Iztok


Reply #34 Top
I'm not sure that i have a strong opinion on the production issue, but it would certainly be nice to be able to queue ships to be built (and also perhaps even queue technologies to be researched).
Reply #35 Top
Re: Iztok, #33

Cool, I'll check that out.
Reply #36 Top
Looks like my understanding of the system was not as strong as I thought it was. Mea Culpa.

I still want to play with excess production carried over to subsequent turns, though.