[.992] Playthrough on Expert, remarks

Very interesting feedback.

I am thinking you might want to try it with abundant resources and see how that works out for you in terms of being able to crank out lots of metal based units.

You played on Expert, which I assume was your "world" setting.  Were your opponents set to Expert, as well?  How many were there, and were they of the opposite faction (kingdom/empire)?  That has a lot to do with overall aggression, all other matters being equal.  What size map did you use, and was it randomized for topographical features?  What were the settings for density of resources and heroes?

ai's are defineately doing quests, but they are still not using gear very well. This is probably why you couldnt find very many if you spent a good deal of the game stuck in a corner.

Not sure what impact this will have on the master quest.

I have seen this too, one of the reasons I tend to keep a distance from the beta until I can mod it myself, while resources are important, right now I personally feel they are the only thing enabling you to construct units of any value.

That is only lategame though, I wish there were more types of armour which was sustained throughout the techtree, to make both lategame and earlygame choices more interesting.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Not all factions should be able to create a ton of metal clad troops. Gilden gets a 50% discount and light plate costs less metal. Try going for that and rushing the Iron Works. You will never want for metal. If you are talking about 20+ cities, you have probably won the game or are playing on a massive map. Metal is about right for cities when you have 8 cities. The endgame is not entirely fleshed out, but if you are in a good war, you have to manage limited resources. Many times leather clad bowmen and boar spears will have to do after a war has exhausted your resources. That is what we call a war of attrition. Full plate should be rare and valuable. I think things are about right, but the most recent nerd to leather makes plate too good again. Leather gives so little armor it should have almost no labor.

But then I have a personal preference in balance, which is contained in my mod. I give players even less metal to work with, but cities can specialize in metal production on city level up.

I played ridiculous for world and expert for AI, large world with 4 AI (to have some space in the beginning).

Having 20+ cities i am pulling +28 metal/turn, with my heaviest cavalry costing up to 130 metal. My fort-city has all updates speeding up production, and i am playing Gilden with -50% to cost in metal of armor and weapons .... I think also some upgrades, like War College, should have metal cost reduction, not only labour. 

But, what really worries/concerns me, is that any other nation then Gilden would have to pay 200+ metal for one unit of heavy armored troops... That's a lot.

I am not sure about scarcity of full plate armor. I think i should be able with 10+ big cities to pull knights every 2 or 3 turn + support units; that's if you want to have full scale war on higher level difficulty. Right now, every unit is priceless and loosing 2-3 high-end troops means your end.

Low armor units just gets slaughtered by numerous archers with all bonuses to accuracy AI tends to field. No point producing troops, unless you go after dodge. By the way it will be nice to know what's your air-dodge, and overall bonus to experience on unit's info screen.

I think it cripples AI as well, they never have any crystals or metal, and they troops are usually lightly armored, which gave me a win. Once i had enough heavy armored troops it was quite easy.

i had under my control good portion of that corner, with 10 cities in there.

Full plate every 3 turns would be bad for balance with 10 cities. If you have 10 cities and some outposts, you should have about 3-5 metal sources. To meet the goal of a knight every 3 turns, you would need to increase the metal gains to massive levels or make plate cost very little metal. Either way, it makes light troops useless. They would be essentially free or take about the same metal as a fully armored knight. The best balance is where knights are very strong, but scarce. I can train a few pikemen for much less cost and counter that kind of unit with numbers. Enemy archers don't pose that much of a threat if you have your own. I find that pikemen with charge are more than capable of competing with a small number of knights and archers. Pikemen do enough damage that a second army can get in there and mop up. But the AI builds really great units in my games since I have played every faction and they all have dozens of units to choose from. 

I do see where a feeling of need for all plate units comes from though. The game should be balanced in the Werewindelian Method: each tier of weapons has unique uses and tactics, but does not obsolete the previous technology. Currently each new tech tier allows you to build a purely superior unit, with scarcity preventing mass training. That is problematic because a good plate army can wipe out 6 or more leather armies before it needs to retreat. With a good back line of mages, it can go for 100 battles. The devs have not fully embraced this idea and I am hoping things will move back towards Werewindelianism. If not, as you say, more metal is needed and the AI needs to only train perfect plate units after the technology is reached. Losing a single army would decide a war otherwise. But in that possible future, there is no possibility for a war of attrition. Only a war of technology.

I will continue to find a balance between each tech tier and make plate so heavy and expensive, you will only be wearing a breastpiece in most all cases. A combination of plate and chain will only be useful on mounted units that can deal with the extra weight. Even so, these armored units will be used to take the initial blows of charging light troops, giving time for archers to take aim on the ensuing melee. One knight per battle should be enough, but the rest of the army should take casualties and require rest. Many such armies would be required to win a war. Dozens of them to capture a city. As it was in medieval times, so it shall be in my mod.

I love your analysis, and i agree with you. It is right on the spot. I would love to have different units in my army and search for perfect harmony of troops, or even have specialized armies to deal concrete dangers.I would love to have also more troops than 9 in army, but that's another topic.

Right now I can go through game producing basically only one type of units, and this type will auto-update itself with time. Furthermore, spread of techs around does not allow diversity, either i go after armor or archery, i cannot have it both at the same time till basically end-game. Even good ideas as iron golems for Gilden fail, because you cannot have more than one golem at the time (I would not want to have 7 of them, but let's say 3 as max for one unit would be great). I never made one catapult either, once you have knights they are kind of underpowered. Some of those techs seems to be devised for mid-game alone, hence, not worthy of investment, better save resources for ultimate troops. This is also problem with all monsters (except dragons), they do not scale well and seem to be useless with time. And just think about it, 3 ogres with full heavy armor costing you a fortune as a dragon-killer team

As I read your post Sean, I start to understand why I don't like to play your mod , We like technology to do atleast slightly different. Although the way I want it would require more graphics for armours throughout the tech tree.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I would not be so quick to dismiss what SeanW3 is thinking about.  He is not saying that advances in technology should not bring something new and exciting to the table, he is saying that advances in technology should not mean that everything old becomes completely useless.

If done right, his way would lead to armies composed of different units, each with a function and purpose, and none useless.  Right now, I build at most three kinds of units, and in most games, it's down to one.

I see use for:

1. The best you can build at the time you NEED units. (Usually leather clad spearmen)

2. Heavy cavalry/Elusive cavalry - depending on your race, defense relies on dodge or armor.  This is what I build with every piece of iron I mine.

3. Archers.

In some games, I build nothing but #2.  These are the games in which I have taken "No Ranged" and in which I have been able to delay producing any units until I find some wild horses.

If SeanW3 pulls off what he's talking about, my hat's off to him.  It is not easy.  For example, not every Total War game manages to tune the balance well enough to make you field more than one or two types of units. 

It was not originally my idea, which is why I refer to it as Werewindellian. Werewindlefr came up with the basic concept when we were working on one of the first balance mod back in the spring. My version has a basic rule that techs are not obsolete until they are 2-3 tiers behind another. But even heavy armor is nearly impossible to wear a full suit of without massive encumbrance penalties and metal costs. It is certainly still a work in progress. The thing I want to change is any claim that tactical battles are identical throughout the game. The interesting part for me has been modding monsters to offer specific challenges to army composition. Like what do you do against an entire army of mounted wildings with pikes?

Hint, I wasn't referring to the Werewindillian... (is that right?) idea, it was the other part where you have armor so heavy you can't wear it all, just not into my taste.
I want full armoured knights
The game just wont feel right when I can't field fully armoured metal-clad soldiers, leather armoured axe warriors to counter the tin-cans, etc. (Ok in this game it will be leather armoured spear warriors.)

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

So did Western Europe, but it was too heavy. A plate chest with chain for everything else looks pretty great for knights. Gilden can have full light plate and Trogs can do full plate no problem. Then there is the Alteration spellbook that can burden or feather units to temporarily get rid of the penalty or screw over enemy tanks. You see, when you place a realistic limitation, magic becomes more integral to the game. That is what I am going after.

I use same settings mostly, but I like sparse ressources. I find the game alot funner if you just can't spam out the best troops possible all the time, but have to prioritize and only build a few elite troops, some comprimized medium troops, and loads of cannonfodder.

Sparse ressources adds an extra layer of strategy. Trade is more important, you really have to prioritize mana use, and how to design your troops gets extra challenging. You also get alot more attached to your troops. Loosing those elites is something you'd really like to avoid.

That said, I'd like sparse ressources to not give less ressources on the map, but perhaps rather cut their output in half when built upon and upgraded. Would be nice.

I think this could be modded in the game pretty easily. Although you would have to go to each of the resource buildings and cut the resource output by your indicated amount, but quite doable to say the least.

Hope someone tries it. I'm not a super-modder, but I can be a hell of a grand map maker. Will try to make some grand maps after release.